busby

K

kaiserwilhelm2

New member
Hi Guys,

I have been offered this busby in trade. As I do not have one in my collection it has my interest but as busbies are outside my field of expertise I would very much like some opinions on it and also a price indication of it. Thanking you in advance for any and all your comments!

Cheers, Tom
 

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This is an OR’s (ordinary ranks) govt issued busby with some officer parts put on it. The feldzeichen, cords and cockades are all Officer and are not original to this piece. The chin scales are also flat which indicates infantry not cavalry, they should be convex (curved). The busby appears to be marked to HR 15, if this is the case, the wappen here is also wrong. HR 15 had a white metal wappen with 4 battle honours on it including Waterloo, El Bodon etc. All in all, too many things wrong with this piece....I would not go for it.
 
Thanks for the reply and information! Much appreciated. Were any of the officer parts: Feldzeichen, Cockades and Cords also worn by senior NCOs or are these strictly for officers?
 
Based on all that Brain had to say ; I think it is
best to pass on it .Looking for the proper parts could
drive you crazy . Even if you found them ; I just saw
an NCO Fangschnur ( Prussian ) sell on German EBay
for $ 686.00 U S Dollars . H R 15 front plate ;
rare and expensive ; you would end up with more
in parts than what you lay out for the helmet to start with
Also I don't remember if Brian told you ; H R 15 takes a
yellow kolpack / bag ; not red .Something else to look for
along with the curved chin straps
Steve McFarland
 
This a government issue piece because of the liner and markings. The cords, feldzeichen, scales and kokarden on this are all private purchase officer and thus, do not belong with it. A senior NCO if he had the money and the Regiment allowed it could purchase his own busby which would have better quality fittings and a silk/satin officer type liner. Regarding the cords, ulan NCOs did have a distinctive set of cords, they have the state colour woven into them. For example, black for Prussia, green for Saxe. An OR issue set of cords and tassels, will be totally white. I don't know about NCO busby cords but I do know that my OR Saxe HR21 busby has plain white cords with an OR's green and white feldzeichen. I would also look inside the wappen on this to see if there is an extra set of holes or the back of the wappen to see if loops have been moved and re soldered.
 
Hi Steve,

Thanks for your reply. I just checked some literature and noticed that the officer Feldzeichen was worn by a Wachtmeister so that at least is possible.

Does anyone know whether or not a Wachtmeister was also allowed the wearing of officer type Cockades and or Fangschnurr? I am just trying to learn a bit more not as to validate the busby - which I agree seems to be put-together and which I as such will give a miss - just to school myself a bit more in the dark arts of the busby.

Thanks!
 
Hi Brian,

Thanks for your second reply which has given me some more valuable information. In order to answer one of your questions, I just read that NCO status on the Fangschnur of Hussars was signalled by applying the state colours to the toggle and slide on the Fangschnur.
 
I suggest you consider the advice you've received. Yes Wachmeister were entitled to wear officer Feldzeichen but that still doesn't change that nothing adds up on this Pelzmütze. It appears at best to be a parts helmet and not worth much. My additional observation, is what is it covered in? Pelzmützen were covered in seal hide. So it's hair, and when hair falls out, you see hide (leather). I see a texture on the bald spots that appear to be cloth. Is that correct? If so, time to walk away.
 
Just looked again, and if that is seal hide that was a freak seal as it had wool.

Please compare to any of mine. Here is a representative example.

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/dunkelblau/helmets/dbh34.htm

That's hair.
 
I also wondered about the "covering material", look in our busby section for some additional real examples. There were late war versions of these OR busbies in felt I believe but they do not have this wooly look to them......perhaps someone shaved some shag carpet back in the 70's ???? Either way, this piece is bogus and as you say has provided you with a cheap "busby lesson"...you saved some cash here by putting it up on our forum. BTW, the date 1908 on the inside of this piece, would also indicate that the original model 1891 side posts have been removed in order to instal the bogus flat infantry officer scales. Yet another indicator, that this is totally made up.
 
Thanks for the wonderful lesson guys! I do not have much interest in these, never did, but should I ever be tempted to buy one I will know better what to look for.
What a great and educational forum this is!

John :)
 
Hi Tony, Thanks for chipping in.

Just to be clear I am no longer considering the busby I was offered in trade that started this thread. That said I am still interested in learning a bit more about busbies in general.

1. the material on the busby pictured in this thread is supposed to be sheep wool of the astrakhan variety - now I am not interested in discussing whether the pictured busby does or does not have this type of wool on it but I would like to know if anything other than seal skin can be encountered on period busbies and to be clear I am referring to busbies other than the Ersatz type which were introduced during WW1.

2. could a period private purchase busby for a NCO that comes with an officer Feldzeichen (a legit period combo) also come with an officer Feldschnur and/or officer cockade? Or would be a NCO never wear an officer Feldschnur and/or officer cockade. Once again this is a general question and not one pertaining to the pictured busby.

Thanks!
 
I would think that since NCOs had their own cockades that they would not wear an Officer's
 
aicusv said:
I would think that since NCOs had their own cockades that they would not wear an Officer's
Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply. This seems logical but the Wachtmeister (senior NCO) wore the officer Feldzeichen, so why not also an officer Fangschnur and/or cockades - hence my question.
 
A couple of sources for an excellent book on cavalry headgear...

https://www.amazon.com/German-Cavalry-1871-1914-Equipment/dp/3902526076

https://gunandswordcollector.com/product/german-cavalry-1871-1914/
 
A couple of sources for an excellent book on cavalry headgear:

https://www.amazon.com/German-Cavalry-1871-1914-Equipment/dp/3902526076

https://gunandswordcollector.com/product/german-cavalry-1871-1914/

...and a second book (in French, but with excellent illustrations):

http://www.terraculturae.com/pages/cavalerie-allemande/les-hussards-allemands.html
 
Also check this out
I think that Jim Turinetti has a book out on Husaren
his books are not as expensive
Steve McFarland

[email protected]

(email address)

www.kaiserhelmets.com

(web site for my books - please visit)
 
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