Hessian Officer
- Thread starter USN
- Start date
ww1czechlegion
Well-known member
This helmet seems to be a mystery with the way it is configured with the parts on it. Will has shared with me that the chinscales are silver color under the links. Maybe the golden appearance color that is seen on the exposed portion of the chinscale links comes from old cigarette smoke, which I realize can give a golden appearance to silver metal fittings.
I notice that Thierry has not yet commented on this helmet. Maybe he might be on holiday right now, as I haven't seen him comment/post here for a while.
Best Wishes,
Alan
I notice that Thierry has not yet commented on this helmet. Maybe he might be on holiday right now, as I haven't seen him comment/post here for a while.
Best Wishes,
Alan
Last edited:
Dane Jensen
Well-known member
It's good to see you on the forum! Do you know if the bicorn is still in the shop?
Dane Jensen
Well-known member
CLOVIS 57
Well-known member
Hello everyone,
Thank you, Alan, for bringing Will's beautiful helmet to my attention.
Now that I'm back online, I can give my opinion.
On the issue of the threading on the spike:
As Ron said, the thread pitch is not the same for metric and imperial threads. Furthermore, modern threads are much tighter than they used to be. The current pitches, which comply with ISO 2000 standards in France, are very tight, whereas at the end of the 19th century they were more stretched out.
It is possible to revive a damaged thread with a tap or die. The problem is that you need to have the right diameter AND THE RIGHT corresponding ‘PITCH’. (I'm not sure if the translation is correct), but the helical size must be exactly the same number of turns (per centimetre).
Here, you need to straighten the threaded section, which is bent, using a triangular file, doing so carefully by hand, working on either side of the bent section.
Next, apply a little silicone oil to the stud, as corrosion tends to seize up the rotation.
Similarly, when I can't unscrew a pin, I always put a small drop of penetrating oil in the hole in the hull upside down, leave it to work for an hour, and then it comes out easily.
If the translation is not clear, please don't hesitate to ask.
More to follow on this helmet.
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
Thank you, Alan, for bringing Will's beautiful helmet to my attention.
Now that I'm back online, I can give my opinion.
On the issue of the threading on the spike:
As Ron said, the thread pitch is not the same for metric and imperial threads. Furthermore, modern threads are much tighter than they used to be. The current pitches, which comply with ISO 2000 standards in France, are very tight, whereas at the end of the 19th century they were more stretched out.
It is possible to revive a damaged thread with a tap or die. The problem is that you need to have the right diameter AND THE RIGHT corresponding ‘PITCH’. (I'm not sure if the translation is correct), but the helical size must be exactly the same number of turns (per centimetre).
Here, you need to straighten the threaded section, which is bent, using a triangular file, doing so carefully by hand, working on either side of the bent section.
Next, apply a little silicone oil to the stud, as corrosion tends to seize up the rotation.
Similarly, when I can't unscrew a pin, I always put a small drop of penetrating oil in the hole in the hull upside down, leave it to work for an hour, and then it comes out easily.
If the translation is not clear, please don't hesitate to ask.
More to follow on this helmet.
Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
CLOVIS 57
Well-known member
Hello,
The Hessian ‘troop’ helmet is very atypical compared to Prussian standards. The Hessian ‘officer’ helmet is too!!!
To analyse and identify this helmet, it is necessary to proceed meticulously, analysing every detail:
The tip:
---It varies depending on the regiment:
***Fixed single piece 116R, 118R and 168R. ( No Busch).
***Screw-on fluted tip only, in nickel silver 115R, in brass and 117R. (for Busch)
***Fluted tip with skirt (like Prussian bayonets) in nickel silver DR23 and 24, in brass TB18. (for Busch).
Here, it is the third case. We know that fixed spikes are for regiments that do not have Haarbusch, in parade. But for practical reasons of transport, many regimental officer helmets without Busch had removable spikes, especially during the fashion for high spikes just before the war.
Therefore, this officer's sword tip can identify:
---In theory, a TB18 officer, and by default 116, 118, 168JR, if we disregard this ‘gilded brass’ tip.
---In theory, a 23 and 24 DR officer if we take into account this ‘silver-plated nickel silver’ tip. (We exclude the 115 Leib-R officer, who would not have this skirt.
The lion on the front plate:
---If gold: 116, 118, 168JR and TB18. (We exclude 117R, which had vintage banners).
---If silver: 23 and 24 DR, (we exclude 115R, which had a different plate with double laurel and oak on each side).
The Land-cockade:
This cockade is an Unteroffizier-Portepee cockade, not an officer's cockade. An officer's cockade was ‘ribboned’. This is not normal.
The scaled chin strap:
***In theory, for all Reich peaked helmets:
---Infantry, Pioneer, foot troops, heavy artillery, siege and fortress artillery, artillery and foot:
flat scales.
---Train, all mounted units (FAR, UR, HR, JzPf, KR, etc.):
domed scales.
***But once again, the Hessians are unique.
Since 1897, only officers of the 115R were required to wear flat epaulettes as per regulations. In practice, many also wore curved epaulettes, as in other Hessian regiments. So here too, there is an anomaly.
***Other distinctive features for Hessian officers.
---Round visor, including for Dragoons. (same as troops).
---Cruciform spike base, including for infantry and artillery. (same as troops).
---No pearl ring.
---No stars (except for the three regiments bearing the star of Louis the Lion).
---Two rivets securing the rear spine (as on Prussian Dragoon ‘troop’ helmets) regardless of regiment, even for foot soldiers.
To be continued with conclusions on this headset.
The Hessian ‘troop’ helmet is very atypical compared to Prussian standards. The Hessian ‘officer’ helmet is too!!!
To analyse and identify this helmet, it is necessary to proceed meticulously, analysing every detail:
The tip:
---It varies depending on the regiment:
***Fixed single piece 116R, 118R and 168R. ( No Busch).
***Screw-on fluted tip only, in nickel silver 115R, in brass and 117R. (for Busch)
***Fluted tip with skirt (like Prussian bayonets) in nickel silver DR23 and 24, in brass TB18. (for Busch).
Here, it is the third case. We know that fixed spikes are for regiments that do not have Haarbusch, in parade. But for practical reasons of transport, many regimental officer helmets without Busch had removable spikes, especially during the fashion for high spikes just before the war.
Therefore, this officer's sword tip can identify:
---In theory, a TB18 officer, and by default 116, 118, 168JR, if we disregard this ‘gilded brass’ tip.
---In theory, a 23 and 24 DR officer if we take into account this ‘silver-plated nickel silver’ tip. (We exclude the 115 Leib-R officer, who would not have this skirt.
The lion on the front plate:
---If gold: 116, 118, 168JR and TB18. (We exclude 117R, which had vintage banners).
---If silver: 23 and 24 DR, (we exclude 115R, which had a different plate with double laurel and oak on each side).
The Land-cockade:
This cockade is an Unteroffizier-Portepee cockade, not an officer's cockade. An officer's cockade was ‘ribboned’. This is not normal.
The scaled chin strap:
***In theory, for all Reich peaked helmets:
---Infantry, Pioneer, foot troops, heavy artillery, siege and fortress artillery, artillery and foot:
flat scales.
---Train, all mounted units (FAR, UR, HR, JzPf, KR, etc.):
domed scales.
***But once again, the Hessians are unique.
Since 1897, only officers of the 115R were required to wear flat epaulettes as per regulations. In practice, many also wore curved epaulettes, as in other Hessian regiments. So here too, there is an anomaly.
***Other distinctive features for Hessian officers.
---Round visor, including for Dragoons. (same as troops).
---Cruciform spike base, including for infantry and artillery. (same as troops).
---No pearl ring.
---No stars (except for the three regiments bearing the star of Louis the Lion).
---Two rivets securing the rear spine (as on Prussian Dragoon ‘troop’ helmets) regardless of regiment, even for foot soldiers.
To be continued with conclusions on this headset.
Attachments
CLOVIS 57
Well-known member
I will take the case of oxidised nickel silver (silver-plated) fittings.
The choice is reduced to three possibilities.
We can rule out the officer from 115, due to the type of skirted tip, the lion bordered by simple branches, the absence of officer stars and the star with the Hessian motto.
That leaves the officer's badge from DR23 or 24 (before the star with sword awarded in 1915). This time, the tip and plate are 0K.
But...
---the flat nickel silver scales are for an officer of the 115th.
---the Hessian cockade is not a Hessian officer's cockade.
It's still a superb headset. Well done!
The choice is reduced to three possibilities.
We can rule out the officer from 115, due to the type of skirted tip, the lion bordered by simple branches, the absence of officer stars and the star with the Hessian motto.
That leaves the officer's badge from DR23 or 24 (before the star with sword awarded in 1915). This time, the tip and plate are 0K.
But...
---the flat nickel silver scales are for an officer of the 115th.
---the Hessian cockade is not a Hessian officer's cockade.
It's still a superb headset. Well done!
Dane Jensen
Well-known member
I assume the cockade may be a police type. This officer helm USN bought, came in with this one,
They both have a piece of chicken wire suspended from the rear spine, they were most likely hung up together.
Reason I know this is I know the place where the hessian officer sold and almost bought it myself, it’s a killer helm.
CLOVIS 57
Well-known member
Hello,
Beautiful police or gendarmerie officer's helmet (to be verified, as I am familiar with the Hessian police's nickel silver helmets). As for the cockade, this is a Hessian officer's cockade. The cockades worn by provincial fire brigade officers, police officers and gendarmes were the same as those worn by army officers.
