Mike Huxley
New member
Just received this
Your comments would be appriciated
Your comments would be appriciated
Just aquired....
- Thread starter Mike Huxley
- Start date
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hi Mike:
You have a wonderful Chevaulegers helmet with some unusual features. The large Bavarian officer's Wappen was utilized prior to 1914, but the chinscales feature an integrated rosette that fits over Knopf 91 sideposts. This form of attachment is a characteristic of the M15 officer's helmet.
However, the "egg" pearlring surrounding the spike base and domed crucifrom retainers indicate an other ranks helmet. My best guess is this may be a private purchase helmet combining officer and other ranks furniture.
Do you detect any signs the helmet may have been modified? I may be wrong, but there appears to be a second Bavarian Wappen impression in the surface of the shell. Sometimes a Wappen can shift out of position, but I would take a close look inside.
Is the spike detachable?
Chas.
You have a wonderful Chevaulegers helmet with some unusual features. The large Bavarian officer's Wappen was utilized prior to 1914, but the chinscales feature an integrated rosette that fits over Knopf 91 sideposts. This form of attachment is a characteristic of the M15 officer's helmet.
However, the "egg" pearlring surrounding the spike base and domed crucifrom retainers indicate an other ranks helmet. My best guess is this may be a private purchase helmet combining officer and other ranks furniture.
Do you detect any signs the helmet may have been modified? I may be wrong, but there appears to be a second Bavarian Wappen impression in the surface of the shell. Sometimes a Wappen can shift out of position, but I would take a close look inside.
Is the spike detachable?
Chas.
OttoMike Huxley
New member
Hi Chas and Otto,
I've taken quite a few pictures of this haube since I received it last week, so I'll post them a few at a time.
Chas, as you will see from one of the shots, the wappen at some time has been changed although I beleive this to be a period made change ... and the chinscales are of the 1915 patten on M91 posts. The spike is removable and I have taken a shot of it as you will see (once I get the hang of posting multipal pics).
So here goes with a few more pics.
I've taken quite a few pictures of this haube since I received it last week, so I'll post them a few at a time.
Chas, as you will see from one of the shots, the wappen at some time has been changed although I beleive this to be a period made change ... and the chinscales are of the 1915 patten on M91 posts. The spike is removable and I have taken a shot of it as you will see (once I get the hang of posting multipal pics).
So here goes with a few more pics.
Mike Huxley
New member
A couple more shots.
Mike Huxley
New member
Last couple for now. There's some writting on the inside of the helmet that I can't make out ... any ideas?
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Anonymous
Guest
Hi Mike:
Thank you for posting the additional pictures. May I request two more?
I would like to see the reverse of the Wappen and a close-up of the Kokarden, please.
My initial reaction was the Offizier M15 chinscales were replacements for the original M91 Mannschaften scales. This seemed unlikely, however, given the dearth of M15 scales (not to mention silver convex ones).
Now, take a look at my Württemberg Offizier M15:
To my knowledge, Knopf 91 utilizing (I know, American spelling) this specific split brad attachment are unique to the Offizier M15 Pickelhauben. Consequently, I believe the scales are original to the helmet.
The Reichskokarden appears to be the silver ring "Unteroffizier mit Portepee" style; a close-up would verify this.
Is there is an M15 bayonet mount beneath the ventilated spike neck?
You really have a fascinating specimen on your hands. Those chinscales alone are worth a small fortune.
Chas.
Thank you for posting the additional pictures. May I request two more?
I would like to see the reverse of the Wappen and a close-up of the Kokarden, please.
My initial reaction was the Offizier M15 chinscales were replacements for the original M91 Mannschaften scales. This seemed unlikely, however, given the dearth of M15 scales (not to mention silver convex ones).
Now, take a look at my Württemberg Offizier M15:
To my knowledge, Knopf 91 utilizing (I know, American spelling) this specific split brad attachment are unique to the Offizier M15 Pickelhauben. Consequently, I believe the scales are original to the helmet.
The Reichskokarden appears to be the silver ring "Unteroffizier mit Portepee" style; a close-up would verify this.
Is there is an M15 bayonet mount beneath the ventilated spike neck?
You really have a fascinating specimen on your hands. Those chinscales alone are worth a small fortune.
Chas.
reservist1
Member
Hello Chas: the M91 side lugs illustrated are also found on issue Bavarian enlisted helmets. I have a 6th Bavarian field artillery helmet dated 1914, manufactured by Hans Roemer, Neu Ulm, with the same spit brad. There is normally a reenforcing washer behind the brad.
Reservist1
Reservist1
Mike Huxley
New member
Hi Chas, Thanks for your observations and comments. Here's a couple of pics of both Kokarden and the reverse of the Wappen, the Wappen is held onto the body of the helmet by two, what I can only describe as, wingnuts. The spike mount is screw-in and I've attached a pic of this as well.
I bought the helmet from AOK's. it's been on Randy's site for a couple of months in the end I couldn't resist any longer.
By the way Chas I love that helmet of yours .... very nice indeed ...in fact it would go with my Prussian foot Artillery one :wink:
Anyway, here's those pics
I bought the helmet from AOK's. it's been on Randy's site for a couple of months in the end I couldn't resist any longer.
By the way Chas I love that helmet of yours .... very nice indeed ...in fact it would go with my Prussian foot Artillery one :wink:
Anyway, here's those pics
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Anonymous
Guest
reservist1 said:
Hi reservist1:
So much for what proved to be a generalization. I wonder if this design was unique to Roemer? It's amazing how much we have yet to learn.
Chas.
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Anonymous
Guest
Mike Huxley said:
Hi Mike:
I just visited Age of Kings and read Randy's description of the Bavarian. If the chinscales had to be replaced, one could not ask for a better substitute.
Thanks for the kind words regarding the Württ.
Chas.
reservist1
Member
Chas: Interesting possibility about the split brad being unique to Roemer.
I think we would need to examine a lot of helmets and see if the split brad retainer shows up on any maker marked helmets other than Roemer. I have a M1915 Prissian Pioneer officer helmet with the split brad M91 side lugs. Typically the helmet has no makers mark. A Prussian helmet could have been made by Roemer considering that they were right across the river from Prussia although one would normally expect it to have been made by one of the Prussian makers.
Concerning the helmet Mike posted, which could be a 2nd, 4th,6th, 8th Chevauleger or a 1st Schwere Reiter, I have virtually the same helmet except the M91 lugs have the standard attachment prongs and the chinscales are the standard enlisted style. My helmet also has a tricter and white horse hair busch. I believe both pieces are private purchase senior NCO helmets.
I think we would need to examine a lot of helmets and see if the split brad retainer shows up on any maker marked helmets other than Roemer. I have a M1915 Prissian Pioneer officer helmet with the split brad M91 side lugs. Typically the helmet has no makers mark. A Prussian helmet could have been made by Roemer considering that they were right across the river from Prussia although one would normally expect it to have been made by one of the Prussian makers.
Concerning the helmet Mike posted, which could be a 2nd, 4th,6th, 8th Chevauleger or a 1st Schwere Reiter, I have virtually the same helmet except the M91 lugs have the standard attachment prongs and the chinscales are the standard enlisted style. My helmet also has a tricter and white horse hair busch. I believe both pieces are private purchase senior NCO helmets.
joerookery
Well-known member
Boy the discussions are getting good!
Ah.... the cockade argument. I seem to recall the Bavarian cockades were 49 mm not 48 mm. The Reich's cockade would be 48 mm. So the question, I throw out is:
How can you tell if this is a portapee Unteroffiziere or a Fähnrich or Fahnenjunker? This is like the old forum! We are rebuilding the questions about cockades and chickens on a stick. The great news is we have new blood like Ron and reservist jumping into the fray!
the M15 rosettes were done after 1914. The wappen is pre-1914. A very nice one. Very possibly, the owner got it and put it on. That could account for the elongated holes.
Ah.... the cockade argument. I seem to recall the Bavarian cockades were 49 mm not 48 mm. The Reich's cockade would be 48 mm. So the question, I throw out is:
How can you tell if this is a portapee Unteroffiziere or a Fähnrich or Fahnenjunker? This is like the old forum! We are rebuilding the questions about cockades and chickens on a stick. The great news is we have new blood like Ron and reservist jumping into the fray!
joerookery said:
Yes, but is it being backed-up or will it be lost again? I'll grill Brian when he calls me next time.
reservist1
Member
Joe: In the case of Bavarian silver trim helmets things get a bit easier. You can rule out artillery because none of the Bavarian artillery units wore silver trim helmets. That leaves us with the Infantry Lieb Regiment, cavalry or pioneer. If the helmets are pre 1914, Infantry Lieb Regiment and Pioneer would have flat chinscales. If the helmet has a white busch it can only be Chevauleger or Schwere Reiter. The Infantry Lieb regiment and Bavarian pioneer regiments did not wear a busch, artillery units wore a red busch and train units black. As for the kokardes, my silver trim helmet with white busch has senior NCO style kokardes, both the Bavarian and national kokarde are 49mm.
Mike Huxley
New member
Reservist1, just to confirm, both kokardes on my helmet measure 49mm, am I right in believing that these ones are senior NCO's? This one was advertised as Schwere Reiter, so again my thoughts were for 1st regiment.
Oh ...if only I could find a busch to go with it :roll:
Oh ...if only I could find a busch to go with it :roll:
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Anonymous
Guest
reservist1 said:
Which makes this all the more versatile:
Unlike Mike's Wappen, all the crowns are voided.
Chas.
reservist1
Member
Mike: I believe the kokardes are definitely senior NCO. There is really no way to tell if the helmet is 1st Schwere Reiter, 2nd, 4th, 6th, or 8th Chevaulegers. A helmet from any of those units is well worth having.
Reservist1
Reservist1
reservist1
Member
Chas: That is a very nice reserve officer helmet. In addition to the voided crowns, yours shows evidence of frosted silver plating and polished details plus gilt finish on the reserve cross as would be expected on an officer front plate. The plate on Mike's and my Sr. NCO helmets are nickel plated with no frosting or polished details. Typical of private purchase enlisted helmets.
Reservist1
Reservist1
Mike Huxley
New member
Chas, your making me dribble all over my keyboard with those pictures.
Now gent's, as an aside question. Would the spikebase and spike be in German silver or silver washed on my helmet. I ask this because whatever happens I don't want to damage it by cleaning it the wrong way.
I followed Tony's instructions for cleaning my Artillery Officers Haube and it worked a treat. But silver finishes are another thing.
Now gent's, as an aside question. Would the spikebase and spike be in German silver or silver washed on my helmet. I ask this because whatever happens I don't want to damage it by cleaning it the wrong way.
I followed Tony's instructions for cleaning my Artillery Officers Haube and it worked a treat. But silver finishes are another thing.