reservist1
Member
Mike: From the photos you posted I believe the spike and base are nickel silver (German silver) as there are no traces of bluish/black tarnish.
Reservist1
Reservist1
Just aquired....
- Thread starter Mike Huxley
- Start date
joerookery
Well-known member
I love thinking out loud about the stuff. Three general brain waves, which is pretty good considering my age, and the time of day.
I'm starting to think that the term private purchase or Eigenstück might be too narrow a word for the subject.
In Neumann, you could buy three kinds of metal plate for silver helmets. The bottom two used nickel silver or German silver and a top one used real silver.
Neumann obviously supplied few Bavarian helmets as their inclusion is almost an afterthought to the catalog.
When I started wrestling with cockades I came to the conclusion that the Western word NCO did not work. Senior NCO is a way of looking at it, but there are several definitions on the western side. This is a piece of major Menzel.
I think there is pretty broad acceptance that size, be it 48 mm or Bavarian 49 mm, determines a portapee Unteroffiziere. Similar to the argument at http://www.coljs.com/articles/NCOCockade.htm.
There does not seem to be broad acceptance however of my thought that the type of ring did not matter. We do seem to have changed the thought of the NCO to senior NCO. An improvement, but not correct by my thought. It is amazing that I still have thoughts at this time of day after all it is five o'clock somewhere.
Kjell-Bjarne
New member
Joe,
Germany is, and always has been, in the occident. I think you mean English, no? The crux of the matter is not so much one of language - and that is a can of worms of its own: thanks to incorrect translations we have promoted Hitler, and demoted Bonaparte, to corporal. The underlying problem is one of rank structures. Individual ranks are not identical - and therefore not easily interchangeable - between armies. Even when the names coincide, there can be quite some difference in authority, etc.
If I understand you correctly, there were two types of cockades worn on spiked helmets: officer and enlisted. In the German Army, junior NCOs wore enlisted cockades. Senior NCOs, i.e., those authorized to wear the officer's portepee, were also authorized to wear officer cockades. Thus, when we refer to NCO cockades, we are actually referring to officer cockades as worn by senior NCOs. An NCO cockade per se did not exist. I agree with you 100% on this.
The only true NCO cockades I am aware of were meant to be worn on the NCO peaked cap (although they often found their way onto enlisted caps as well).
K-B
joerookery
Well-known member
I got done with my nap before you did! I went to the driving range it was almost 90° outside. November in South Texas! Now back to hats.
I probably need to rewrite the entire article. I'm too confusing to everyone. I know what I mean, nobody else does. There are three kinds of cockades. Well four really. 1. Enlisted and lower-level Unteroffiziere ohne portapee 48 mm cockades. 2. Unteroffiziere with portapee 48 mm cockades. 3. Commissioned officer 55 mm cockades. 4. 65 mm cockades for metal helmets.
You're right I shouldn't call NCO a Western term. It really is an English-language term. Croup #2 above have a silver ring. An English-language author named Bowman seem to have coined the term NCO cockade when referring to 48 mm cockades with a silver ring. Bowman focused more on that type of ring than he did on the size of the cockade. There is currently general agreement that a 48 mm cockade with a silver ring was for Unteroffiziere with portapee. There is not broad agreement that the type of silver ring was exclusive.
I guess my objection or thought is that Unteroffiziere with portapee does not equal senior NCO there are a lot of reasons for this but it is difficult to get agreement between the Army and the Air Force in America as to what a senior NCO is. If the English-language entities cannot agree on what a senior NCO is, should we not use Unteroffiziere with portapee when discussing this?
I guess I'm just pole vaulting over mouse droppings but I have a hard time equating senior Fähnrich with senior NCO in my mind. I have no problem equating Fähnrich with a Unteroffiziere with portapee. See I have confused everyone even more.
I probably need to rewrite the entire article. I'm too confusing to everyone. I know what I mean, nobody else does. There are three kinds of cockades. Well four really. 1. Enlisted and lower-level Unteroffiziere ohne portapee 48 mm cockades. 2. Unteroffiziere with portapee 48 mm cockades. 3. Commissioned officer 55 mm cockades. 4. 65 mm cockades for metal helmets.
You're right I shouldn't call NCO a Western term. It really is an English-language term. Croup #2 above have a silver ring. An English-language author named Bowman seem to have coined the term NCO cockade when referring to 48 mm cockades with a silver ring. Bowman focused more on that type of ring than he did on the size of the cockade. There is currently general agreement that a 48 mm cockade with a silver ring was for Unteroffiziere with portapee. There is not broad agreement that the type of silver ring was exclusive.
I guess my objection or thought is that Unteroffiziere with portapee does not equal senior NCO there are a lot of reasons for this but it is difficult to get agreement between the Army and the Air Force in America as to what a senior NCO is. If the English-language entities cannot agree on what a senior NCO is, should we not use Unteroffiziere with portapee when discussing this?
I guess I'm just pole vaulting over mouse droppings but I have a hard time equating senior Fähnrich with senior NCO in my mind. I have no problem equating Fähnrich with a Unteroffiziere with portapee. See I have confused everyone even more.
A
Anonymous
Guest
reservist1 said:
Thank you. Odd that I never noticed one unusual detail until today: six ventilation holes in the spike neck.
Chas.
Kjell-Bjarne
New member
Joe,
Yes, I admit that I'm a little confused! I guess I jumped into the discussion without fully understanding the issue.
Concerning ranks: By all means let us use the German terms Unteroffiziere mit Portepee and Unteroffizere ohne Portepee; but I really don't understand the objection to the term senior NCO. The officer candidates (Fähnrich) were also considered part of the NCO corps and were Unteroffiziere mit Portepee. In the US Army, Air Force, and Marines, an E-7 or above is considered a senior NCO; however I don't see the relevancy of that to our discussion. This is an international forum, and I don't see the necessity of equating current US rank structures with those of Imperial Germany. It is like trying to make apples out of oranges, and I believe we can all grasp the concept of junior and senior NCOs.
It is more to the point to understand which ranks fell within which categories, and you were kind enough to provide that info above. I'll reproduce it here for those who have difficulty with the script:
Unteroffiziere mit Portepee
1. Feldwebel bzw. Wachtmeister
2. Portepeefähnrich mit der Offizierwaffe
3. Vizefeldwebel bzw. Vizewachtmeister (Offizier-Dienstthuer)
4. Portepeefähnrich mit dem Mannschafts-Seitengewehr
Unteroffiziere ohne Portepee
1. Sergeanten
2. Unteroffiziere bzw. Oberjäger
Now if I could just figure out those bleeding cockades!
Skøl!
Yes, I admit that I'm a little confused! I guess I jumped into the discussion without fully understanding the issue.
Concerning ranks: By all means let us use the German terms Unteroffiziere mit Portepee and Unteroffizere ohne Portepee; but I really don't understand the objection to the term senior NCO. The officer candidates (Fähnrich) were also considered part of the NCO corps and were Unteroffiziere mit Portepee. In the US Army, Air Force, and Marines, an E-7 or above is considered a senior NCO; however I don't see the relevancy of that to our discussion. This is an international forum, and I don't see the necessity of equating current US rank structures with those of Imperial Germany. It is like trying to make apples out of oranges, and I believe we can all grasp the concept of junior and senior NCOs.
It is more to the point to understand which ranks fell within which categories, and you were kind enough to provide that info above. I'll reproduce it here for those who have difficulty with the script:
Unteroffiziere mit Portepee
1. Feldwebel bzw. Wachtmeister
2. Portepeefähnrich mit der Offizierwaffe
3. Vizefeldwebel bzw. Vizewachtmeister (Offizier-Dienstthuer)
4. Portepeefähnrich mit dem Mannschafts-Seitengewehr
Unteroffiziere ohne Portepee
1. Sergeanten
2. Unteroffiziere bzw. Oberjäger
Now if I could just figure out those bleeding cockades!
Skøl!
dave mosher
Active member
Joe
Maybe this a bit redundant but I totally agree with you on the three (four including metal helms) types of cockades and who would wear them AFTER 1897.
Offiziere-55mm w/ silver doube ridges;
Unteroffiziere mit portepee (Vizefeldwebels, Feldwebels Vizewachtmeisters, Wachtmeisters and Fahnrichs)-48mm w/ silver single ridge; and
Unteroffiziere ohne portepee and Manschaften (Sergeants and below)-48mm painted rim
I also totally agree with K-B that Unteroffiziere mit portepee were allowed to wear officers cockades on their schirmutzes.
Now, if everyone is happy with that, I still believe that the 48mm cockade w/ silver single ridge was used on officers helmets at least through the late 1880s, perhaps even up to 1897, when the reichs cockade was introduced. Is there any evidence to confirm or refute this?
Dave
Maybe this a bit redundant but I totally agree with you on the three (four including metal helms) types of cockades and who would wear them AFTER 1897.
Offiziere-55mm w/ silver doube ridges;
Unteroffiziere mit portepee (Vizefeldwebels, Feldwebels Vizewachtmeisters, Wachtmeisters and Fahnrichs)-48mm w/ silver single ridge; and
Unteroffiziere ohne portepee and Manschaften (Sergeants and below)-48mm painted rim
I also totally agree with K-B that Unteroffiziere mit portepee were allowed to wear officers cockades on their schirmutzes.
Now, if everyone is happy with that, I still believe that the 48mm cockade w/ silver single ridge was used on officers helmets at least through the late 1880s, perhaps even up to 1897, when the reichs cockade was introduced. Is there any evidence to confirm or refute this?
Dave
Kjell-Bjarne
New member
Dave,
Not redundant at all. You've laid it out so even I can understand it. :wink:
No need to whine, Joe. The discussions you generate are wonderful! How else would newcomers like me learn?
Thanks to both of you!!!
Not redundant at all. You've laid it out so even I can understand it. :wink:
No need to whine, Joe. The discussions you generate are wonderful! How else would newcomers like me learn?
Thanks to both of you!!!
First Tony...the new site has been backed up several times during this construction phase. We will not be caught with our guard down again. Second, I have a question with the Bavarian cockade...should the central ring not be smooth ie no hash marks or what may be called a hounds tooth design??? I know that this certainlywas the case in pre war Bavarian helmets. The wappen is the older style, does this kokade fit with this?? I looked at this helmet while it was up for sale. Randy clearly stated that the chin scales were his repros but I can not remember if anything was said about the kokarden. I am quite prepared to be corrected here. I can also provide a pic of a Bavarian officer kokade to illustrate what I am talking about. Brian
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hi Brian:
The description is still available at AOK. I've pasted it here and provided the link. I wasn't aware AOK were fabricating silver M15 Officer scales.
BAVARIAN SCHWERE-REITER PICKELHAUBE für NCO
Bavarian Heavy Cavalry NCO or One year volunteer Model 1897. Leather helmet body with silver trim. Large style Bavarian frontplate. Helmet is officer style with sweat leather and red silk headliner. Also inner visors are colored red/green. Only spike base has NCO style pearl ring. Complete with original NCO style 2 piece cockades. Silver chinscales on M91 side posts replaced, besides that, guaranteed original.
http://ageofkingsmilitaria.com/sell4.htm
Chas.
The description is still available at AOK. I've pasted it here and provided the link. I wasn't aware AOK were fabricating silver M15 Officer scales.
BAVARIAN SCHWERE-REITER PICKELHAUBE für NCO
Bavarian Heavy Cavalry NCO or One year volunteer Model 1897. Leather helmet body with silver trim. Large style Bavarian frontplate. Helmet is officer style with sweat leather and red silk headliner. Also inner visors are colored red/green. Only spike base has NCO style pearl ring. Complete with original NCO style 2 piece cockades. Silver chinscales on M91 side posts replaced, besides that, guaranteed original.
http://ageofkingsmilitaria.com/sell4.htm
Chas.
Mike Huxley
New member
Brian, before I bought the helmet I had several conversations with Remy. I asked about the chinscales and was told by him that they were replacement ones. I do not beleive these to be repros, but period scales that did not originally belong to this helmet.
Hi Mike;
I stand corrected re the scales...replacement not repros. My question was mainly about the Bavarian kokarde and the fact that it does not have a smooth ring on it that I have encountered in the past. Perhaps this is a war time adjustment such as we see with the Saxon M15 kokarden???? I am after information here. Brian
I stand corrected re the scales...replacement not repros. My question was mainly about the Bavarian kokarde and the fact that it does not have a smooth ring on it that I have encountered in the past. Perhaps this is a war time adjustment such as we see with the Saxon M15 kokarden???? I am after information here. Brian
A
Anonymous
Guest
joerookery said:
Hi Joe:
That would be my interpretation also.
Chas.
Mike Huxley
New member
Joe, to be honest, I'm more than pleased and in fact astounded about the amount of interest this has created and the things I am learning already. As you said to me on GMIC forum, "many eyes are better".
Joining this forum has opened my eyes to so many things already. For instance, I was only aware that there were 3 types of kokaden,
Unteroffiziere mit Portepee
Unteroffiziere ohne Portepee
and officer.
Now I learn that there are variations within the different Kingdoms and States on these.
I can see I've got a long way to go yet, but this is a fantastic boost to my understanding and has certainly increased my thirst for more research on the subject.
The question on the elongated holes, was in fact, my main concern at first. However, on real close examination, the holes do seem to be period made as the leather is the same colour throughout the inside of the openings (if that makes sense). Again, I'm not sure why this would have happened, so I'm open to others suggestions and help. Please keep the info flowing guys, every bit helps.
Joining this forum has opened my eyes to so many things already. For instance, I was only aware that there were 3 types of kokaden,
Unteroffiziere mit Portepee
Unteroffiziere ohne Portepee
and officer.
Now I learn that there are variations within the different Kingdoms and States on these.
I can see I've got a long way to go yet, but this is a fantastic boost to my understanding and has certainly increased my thirst for more research on the subject.
The question on the elongated holes, was in fact, my main concern at first. However, on real close examination, the holes do seem to be period made as the leather is the same colour throughout the inside of the openings (if that makes sense). Again, I'm not sure why this would have happened, so I'm open to others suggestions and help. Please keep the info flowing guys, every bit helps.
Hi Mike;
FYI these private purchase helmets could also be either purchased second hand or revamped and handed down to the next generation in the family. This makes sense when you think about it. I have a Beamte officer helme that shows the 4 normal holes for the round Prussian spike base. However, there were an additional 4 holes punched for a cruciform base which corresponded to the Beamte configuration with Prussian line eagle wappen plus small silver eagle, cruciform spike base and standard rounded visor.
I think that we collectors have to forget about perfection sometimes and put ourselves back in to practicality mode. Not everyone had the money to throw around on new equipment. So, save some marks ($) buy second hand, put in some extra holes which don't show, make everything look right and get on with it.
I am still waiting for an answer from someone on that Bav kokarde. Brian
FYI these private purchase helmets could also be either purchased second hand or revamped and handed down to the next generation in the family. This makes sense when you think about it. I have a Beamte officer helme that shows the 4 normal holes for the round Prussian spike base. However, there were an additional 4 holes punched for a cruciform base which corresponded to the Beamte configuration with Prussian line eagle wappen plus small silver eagle, cruciform spike base and standard rounded visor.
I think that we collectors have to forget about perfection sometimes and put ourselves back in to practicality mode. Not everyone had the money to throw around on new equipment. So, save some marks ($) buy second hand, put in some extra holes which don't show, make everything look right and get on with it.
I am still waiting for an answer from someone on that Bav kokarde. Brian
joerookery
Well-known member
. Rings on cockades! On page 136 of Kraus in the bottom left hand corner, there is a probe card, which includes and Unteroffiziere mit portapee from Bavaria. On page 82 of the Seibold book there is a detailed explanation of Bavarian cockades. None of them has the picture of the ring that is on Mike's cockade. The focus is on size of the cockade not on the type of ring. I sound like a broken record don't I? This cockade of Mike's has some sort of designer ring, but its size is consistent with Unteroffiziere mit portapee. I keep beating my drum. I have found nothing in any source that details adequately the types of rings and why.
Mike Huxley
New member
Hi Brian,
Your reasoning for the elongated holes sounds right to me. I know how it is on a tight budget. In fact I have noticed another hole that is further up on the helmet and is in line with the cruciform front arm, but slightly lower. This hole is covered by the Wappen
Here's a pic, look closly just under the front of the cruciform front arm.
It would seem that what you said was the case here.
Yes, I'm also interested in finding out more about that Bav kokard as well. Who's got the answer?
Your reasoning for the elongated holes sounds right to me. I know how it is on a tight budget. In fact I have noticed another hole that is further up on the helmet and is in line with the cruciform front arm, but slightly lower. This hole is covered by the Wappen
Here's a pic, look closly just under the front of the cruciform front arm.
It would seem that what you said was the case here.
Yes, I'm also interested in finding out more about that Bav kokard as well. Who's got the answer?
Mike Huxley
New member
How bloody right you are Otto .. I never thought before how intense this subject was .... Ohhh my brain it hurts 
A
Anonymous
Guest
joerookery said:
Bowman: Volume 1: Page 75. Mystery solved!
(I'm being sarcastic)
I have seen one like Mike's at the SOS (it was still available when I saw it again at the MAX). The seller was Gerhard Winbiel:
Antiques-Arms & Armour, Inc.
Gerhard Windbiel
PO Box 116
Zieglersville, PA 19492
Phone: 610-287-9584
It looked phony to me on both occasions. However, unlike Mike's Kokarde, it was white with a blue ring not silver. Mike, can you tell if yours is painted silver, or a silver colored metal?
Chas.