Kürassier Helmet ersatz

SkipperJohn said:
brusik1 said:
it may say something

Jäger-Regiment zu Pferde Nr. 8 from Wikipedia:

" the uniform:
The uniform was modeled after the style of the cuirassiers. The tunic was gray-green with Swedish serves. Collar, cuffs and lugs were light green, while the badge color was white. The buttons were white, boots and leather black. The officer's helmet, as in the case of the cuirassiers, but of blackened tin with dragoon eagle as ornament, border rails, scales, and lace were made of tombak. The team helmet corresponded to the helmet of the Dragoons. (Since not enough cuirassier helmets were available for the formation of regiments 8-13, the conversion was not until 1915.) Dragoon boots were worn. The epaulettes were provided with the regimental number. "
Click to expand...

WOW! I never knew or heard of this before.
So --- If I found a model 1915 Kurassier helmet with an 8 - 13 stamp, it would actually have belonged to a JzP regiment?
I may actually have a JzP helmet that I didn't know about.
Could this possibly explain the (apparently common) use of a regular spike on a Kurassier helmet?
Did the Kurassier helmets ever have the dragoon eagle for JzP or was it always the Kurassier line eagle?
I have lots of questions now!

John :eek: :eek: :eek:
Click to expand...

I think that I misread this the first time. It does say "The team helmet corresponded to the helmet of the Dragoons". That would be a leather helmet, not a metal Kurassier helmet. It also says that a "conversion" occurred in 1915. My question is what was the conversion --- converted to what?

John :)
 
Owned one of these helmets as part of my JzPf collection. It was OD green inside and out, small OR cocards, leather chinstrap and leather and horsehair liner. It was also marked 8 J.P. on the back trim.

A lightweight helmet. If I find a photo of my helmet I'll post it.

Dennis
 
Steve,
Actually, you picked it up from me at the S.O.S. a few years back, 2004 I believe.
Cheers
Dennis
 
SCAN0255.JPG

So I was able to drag up of photo of my ersatz helm, it was in very good shape.
I saw the helmet in Griffin Militaria, $3,750 is a bit steep in my humble opinion, even as rare as they are.

Cheers

Dennis
 
brusik1 said:
Do you have just a picture of the helmet?
Click to expand...

I sold this one in 2004, this is the only photo of it I have.
I only have two OR helmets now, one pre-war to JzPf Regt 7 and one M15 field gray.

Cheers

Dennis
 
The helmet shown at the beginning of this thread a bit of a sore point for me. It was on ebay-UK over Christmas. As soon as I saw it, I thought - I am going to win that one. Then it disappeared off ebay -- as is so often the case. I did manage to contact the seller. He told me he had received an offer of £770 but not yet had the money. I said to him, don't wait for the £770, I'll give you £850. I would have offered more / bid more but felt a bit let down by it all. He later told me that the agreed £770 had arrived so I missed out.

you win some, you loose some.
 
Here is something to look at:

I do not think there is anybody more qualified than Marshall on the subject.

12th Jaeger zu Pferde corporal wearing a Cuirassier officer's helmet.
A super confusing picture. When I 1st saw it I thought it was some sort of a Meldereiter. However...
ps1775 by Joe Robinson, on Flickr

from Marshall D.
The officer's Cuirassier helmet seems a bit odd for a 12th Jaeger zu Pferde corporal, though. The eagle plate should be a Dragoon style, but it's not. Also, JzP Regiments 7-13 enlisted men didn't have the crossbelt that this soldier is wearing. Rather, they wore the 1911 Cavalry ammunition pouches in black with Y-straps. I believe officers in these regiments, though, did have crossbelts like this. Perhaps this soldier had ambitions of becomeing a officer, so he purchased such accoutrements ahead of time?
I don't think Meldereiter troops bore anything but Roman numerals on their shoulder straps to reflect their army corps affiliation. This guy's straps have Arabic regimental numbers. The line eagle was no longer displayed on Meldereiter helmets after 1905, I think. They went to the Dragoon eagle. By the time the 12th JzP Regiment was formed in 1913, the black leather Dragoon helmet was prescriobed for Rgts. 7-13, which is another reason why I think the NCO in your photo was rushing things by purchasing an officer's helmet and wearing the cross strap.
 
I know during the American Civil War photographers would maintain an inventory of uniform items to use as props for photos. It maybe the case of this helmet.
 
I am trying to figure out how to post the pictures from my iPad.

When I changed my interest area from collecting foot troops uniforms in field-grey to the cavalry also in field-grey during the early 1980's, my mentor and advisor "KAGGRR#1" sold me a nice example of the Ersatz JzP helmet now under discussion here. I apologize for the poor quality of the circa 1985 photo. I took the picture with my Instamatic camera before I got a REAL camera to document my collection. :) It's been 23 years since I sold my uniform and helmet collection, but I remember this particular helmet quite well. I would call it made of pressed tin in one piece rather than "pressed metal", as one poster suggested. Semantics, semantics. The helmet was extremely light-weight. Inside the top of the helmet, there was a large square of what I believe was matted horsehair. At the time I corresponded with two other owners of such a helmet and both of theirs also had this wadding in their helmets. I imagine this horsehair was designed to function as extra padding for the very light-weight and flimsy leather liner. The helmet color on the other two owners' helmets varied from grey to greenish-grey and likewise had the line eagle front plate, not the Dragoon eagle associated with Jaeger zu Pferde helmets. I don't recall the spike being removable. I don't think it was. The large cockades are incorrect in this picture, but the helmet at that time had had almost 70 years for various owners to install these large cockades. Better those than none! Because pressed tin helmets proved themselves to be a liability in combat - due to shards entering the wearer's head when impacted by bullets or shell fragments - such helmets were relegated to troops in non-combat areas, such as back home in Germany and among lower tier formations that were unlikely to see front line service.

These helmets are always marked "JzP8", although other units wore it. As can be seen in the four examples of this helmet in images from my photos collection, one is being worn by a Cuirassier from a cyphered regiment and one by 1st and 12th Jaeger zu Pferde troopers. Note that in all cases the cockades are small. These helmets rarely turn up in surviving photos. Of the more than 500 Jaeger zu Pferde/Stabsordonnaze photos in my collection (my specialty!), there are only these three examples. Even rarer among Cuirassiers, although it's a Cuirassier style helmet!

Marshall V. Daut
 
I’m not smart enough to figure out the FTP stuff from my iPad. I should be back to the computer tonight.
 
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