joerookery
Well-known member
Just received this one. I had always thought that the patches were done in coordination with the color change of numbers. This later model disproves that thought. The helmet is not original to the cover.
Lost Skeleton’s Guide to the Pickelhaube Helmbezug
- Thread starter Lost Skeleton
- Start date
joerookery
Well-known member
There is an extremely interesting discussion of the zigzag stitch and buttonholes in another forum. Apparently French collectors have some significant insights into the stitching!
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=445144
http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=445144
On this photo points zigzag have an abnormal shape because the sewing machine is disordered. And the difference of size of thread and texture of thread prevent the stitches from being correctly made.
I realized the experiment with a modern machine.
the result :
I dont know if it will be the same with on John Kayser sewing machine.
This machine were very rare is the early 20th.
The construction of the first German Zickzacknähmaschine in 1882 by John Kayser (English and American had already finalized him) before). The machine to sew was too much detailed and too fragile. Zickzacknähmaschine was only lled after 1930 ".
Now if we compare in the first hand the 83 and 69 Ir and in the secand hand the 15 and 73 IR :
The first of the observations is the regularity of stitches.
They seem that there are ancient two models (I say ancient and not of from the period) by intellectual caution, a production for the cinema lposterior than the 1930s, or one works of collector being always possible)
Link: http://lagrandeguerre.cultureforum.net/coiffes-uniformes-equipements-individuels-et-collectifs-f38/les-couvres-casque-a-pointe-t32558-45.htm
Page 4 to see the photo of Anzac. were you can see à 69 IR.
If we compare ancient both models, with 73 IR and 15 Ir, we notice that on these last ones are very regular.
While on the ancient models stitches are less regular, they close in the most concave parts, because needlewomen has to make turnpieces of tissues to follow the outlines of figures.
This, lets think that 15 and 73 were sewn by a digital machine.
Another argument to authentify the 73 IR et 15 IR is than to make a copy of tissues is impossible.
I called up this day A weaver specialized in the linen, he answered me only it not he put any concern. As are his work is completely manual, it will be only expensively (50 $ for a square meter).
But compare to the price of the copy (650 euros) it will be done.
Another argument is the number of these cover helmets (some people speak about hundred, the traders sold them 150 euro and could settle them in 100 euro, what nobody would make with items so rare) and make that their partisans possess some.
Your opinions are a wealth, do not look avaricious, make them share
joerookery
Well-known member
FYI the original thread–or precursor to this one.
http://www.pickelhaubes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4273&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=cover&start=0
http://www.pickelhaubes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4273&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=cover&start=0
joerookery
Well-known member
There is a very long discussion in France about this–at least two French forums have covered opinions on this. There is no general agreement. There are some examples of a zigzag shown in these forums and then there is talk about a “discovered cache of covers” in France 20 years ago apparently having the numbers 15, 73, and 51. Those ones from the “Discovered cache” are most heavily questioned. I have gotten a reasonable rundown from some French collectors but apparently this is a touchy subject for some of the people who have these covers, and there is no agreement between the collectors about which stitch or stitches are acceptable. Even if there is no agreement it has been extremely interesting and even now one of the covers is being dissected to see if more can be determined–this seems to have been going on around us.
Hey Joe,
The study of stitching is an interesting topic, I know that there are some of the people who reproduce items for the reenactors, who take pride in using the original period sewing machines to do their work (making their workmanship more difficult to distinguish form original in the future)
I can not find any relation between the 15, 51 and 73 regiments, they are not even in the same Corps, why would there be a “discovered cache of covers” from such diverse Regements? I could see it if they were from the same BA.
Best
Gus
The study of stitching is an interesting topic, I know that there are some of the people who reproduce items for the reenactors, who take pride in using the original period sewing machines to do their work (making their workmanship more difficult to distinguish form original in the future)
I can not find any relation between the 15, 51 and 73 regiments, they are not even in the same Corps, why would there be a “discovered cache of covers” from such diverse Regements? I could see it if they were from the same BA.
Best
Gus
ir 76 de Hambourg
New member
Hello
These 3 regiments are not coming from the same BA:
IR15 = BA VII
IR51 = BA VI
FR73 = BA X
In France we are looking for the origine of these pickelhaube bezüg...
Amicalement
IR76 de Hambourg
These 3 regiments are not coming from the same BA:
IR15 = BA VII
IR51 = BA VI
FR73 = BA X
In France we are looking for the origine of these pickelhaube bezüg...
Amicalement
IR76 de Hambourg
I have a question, is it thought that the questionable numbers are applied to original Überzeuge, or are they thought to be reproduction too, I ask this because the two questionable examples seem to have similar material, and they are quite different from all the othere materials found on known originals?
Best
Gus
Best
Gus
joerookery
Well-known member
A French member of our forum forwarded this explanation–seems pretty clear.
Some points:
1. Sensitivity: this topic is very sensitive because most of the collectors have been buying Uberzug for lot of money (between 600 - 900 euros currently). So nobody is interested in discussing this topic especially if it is said that "there are fakes!". Then, collectors are not happy with this topic and are reacting quite fiercely against any debate.
2. Suspicions:
21. A big lot of prussian infantry Uberzug was allegedly discovered some years ago in Lorraine (Metz and its surroundings). It was said they were found in a old German barracks, behind a wall, ....you can imagine the legends around this discovery, explaining how genuine they were, except that it was a Bavarian barracks! Anyway. Most of them were sold with a red "73".
22. Numerous red numbers (in wool), made today, are currently for sale (Ebay, shows, etc....) and are very easy to find.
3. The debates:
The are 2 debates: one debate based on rivalry between two forums/people and one debate based on the items themselves.
4. Conclusions:
The zigzag sewing is under suspicion. It is said that red pieces sewed with a too perfect zigzag sewing was impossible before 1914.
Regarding the lot coming from Lorraine, it is said that Uberzug without any numbers were "improved" and sold to gain the max of money.
Once again, counter-attacks from collectors, trying to prove that their (very expensive) pieces are genuine continue in order to discredit the person who spoke first about this "zigzag" story.
So you see, we are at two levels:
-debate on the pieces and the red numbers, which is a very technical level
- difficulty between collectors/owners to discuss openly about theirs items, which is more of a sensation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My interest is a technical nature–look at the 83 example above. That is not a zigzag however, it is not a straight hand stitch. It appears to be from a machine–maybe I’m wrong–I am not sure really sure what it is. Is this a reproduction? I don’t think so but I’m open to different points of view. I have seen examples of zigzag stitches that look pretty convincing as well as others that look more modern. And then there is this 83! Beats me but I think it is an interesting discussion.
Some points:
1. Sensitivity: this topic is very sensitive because most of the collectors have been buying Uberzug for lot of money (between 600 - 900 euros currently). So nobody is interested in discussing this topic especially if it is said that "there are fakes!". Then, collectors are not happy with this topic and are reacting quite fiercely against any debate.
2. Suspicions:
21. A big lot of prussian infantry Uberzug was allegedly discovered some years ago in Lorraine (Metz and its surroundings). It was said they were found in a old German barracks, behind a wall, ....you can imagine the legends around this discovery, explaining how genuine they were, except that it was a Bavarian barracks! Anyway. Most of them were sold with a red "73".
22. Numerous red numbers (in wool), made today, are currently for sale (Ebay, shows, etc....) and are very easy to find.
3. The debates:
The are 2 debates: one debate based on rivalry between two forums/people and one debate based on the items themselves.
4. Conclusions:
The zigzag sewing is under suspicion. It is said that red pieces sewed with a too perfect zigzag sewing was impossible before 1914.
Regarding the lot coming from Lorraine, it is said that Uberzug without any numbers were "improved" and sold to gain the max of money.
Once again, counter-attacks from collectors, trying to prove that their (very expensive) pieces are genuine continue in order to discredit the person who spoke first about this "zigzag" story.
So you see, we are at two levels:
-debate on the pieces and the red numbers, which is a very technical level
- difficulty between collectors/owners to discuss openly about theirs items, which is more of a sensation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
My interest is a technical nature–look at the 83 example above. That is not a zigzag however, it is not a straight hand stitch. It appears to be from a machine–maybe I’m wrong–I am not sure really sure what it is. Is this a reproduction? I don’t think so but I’m open to different points of view. I have seen examples of zigzag stitches that look pretty convincing as well as others that look more modern. And then there is this 83! Beats me but I think it is an interesting discussion.
stephane_avesnes
New member
Hi Joe
just to clarify the situation :
1° - In the 80s, some guys found in the Dieuze barracks items dating from the 1st WW, including some very strange covers, marked after the 3rd chevau leger (Bavaria), I have one of these, they look so ugly that I did not dare to upload the pics on my website .... But they are most probably original, I bought or traded mine from Eric Siegel, a famous and serious French collector, for a very cheap price at that time. i'll try to take pics and post them here when I have time.
2° - Still in the 80s or beginning of the 90s, another grouping appeared, brand new, very nice and classic covers with red numbers (15, 51, 55 and 73), they sold for cheap (around 30 USD) at that time and many collectors bought some, including (according to La Mitraille) the regreated Jean Louis Larcade whose reputation has not to be recalled. from times to times one of these covers appears on the market. I bought mine (number 15) some years ago on ebay for the modest amount of 100 euros.... The source of these covers is not yet determined and some collectors, in favour of their authenticity, are trying to find the link to this source, probably in eastern France, Alsace or Lorraine. One or two contributors on the French forum (and on wehrmacht awards) are saying that some dealer is trying to promote their authenticity in order to push the price up. However all indicate that the initial stock pile was sold out many years ago and no dealer has currently any of these available, at least to my knowledge. Most of the analysis leads to the conclusion that they are original but mint, some interrogations are put on the numbers since it's possible to sew numbers on original covers. However 20 years ago, there was no interest for covers in France and no additionnal value for a numbered cover compared to a "naked" cover. The one in favour of a fake story or half fake (cover original with added numbers) mentioned that he was planning a C14 datation, so far no scientific info has been given on this topic and there's a sort of consensus on the french forum to come back to a scientific approach based on certainty and not on supposition, therefore a trend for considering them as originals.
hope this helps !
cheers
steve
imperialhelmets.com
just to clarify the situation :
1° - In the 80s, some guys found in the Dieuze barracks items dating from the 1st WW, including some very strange covers, marked after the 3rd chevau leger (Bavaria), I have one of these, they look so ugly that I did not dare to upload the pics on my website .... But they are most probably original, I bought or traded mine from Eric Siegel, a famous and serious French collector, for a very cheap price at that time. i'll try to take pics and post them here when I have time.
2° - Still in the 80s or beginning of the 90s, another grouping appeared, brand new, very nice and classic covers with red numbers (15, 51, 55 and 73), they sold for cheap (around 30 USD) at that time and many collectors bought some, including (according to La Mitraille) the regreated Jean Louis Larcade whose reputation has not to be recalled. from times to times one of these covers appears on the market. I bought mine (number 15) some years ago on ebay for the modest amount of 100 euros.... The source of these covers is not yet determined and some collectors, in favour of their authenticity, are trying to find the link to this source, probably in eastern France, Alsace or Lorraine. One or two contributors on the French forum (and on wehrmacht awards) are saying that some dealer is trying to promote their authenticity in order to push the price up. However all indicate that the initial stock pile was sold out many years ago and no dealer has currently any of these available, at least to my knowledge. Most of the analysis leads to the conclusion that they are original but mint, some interrogations are put on the numbers since it's possible to sew numbers on original covers. However 20 years ago, there was no interest for covers in France and no additionnal value for a numbered cover compared to a "naked" cover. The one in favour of a fake story or half fake (cover original with added numbers) mentioned that he was planning a C14 datation, so far no scientific info has been given on this topic and there's a sort of consensus on the french forum to come back to a scientific approach based on certainty and not on supposition, therefore a trend for considering them as originals.
hope this helps !
cheers
steve
imperialhelmets.com
Hey Steve,
The comment that they sold cheap $45-$50US is a bit missleading, at that time $50 was a very large sum for a bit of cloth, M1915 Pickelhauben were trading for not much more than that.
We do know that zigzag machines did exsist, and it is reasonalbe to believe that there were sewing machine opperators who could adjust them correctly, and it would be reasonable that a lot that were found together would be sewn by the same opperator, but I have a problem with the numbers of the regiments, and to know that 55 was included in the lot is even more interesting, it would seem that 1s and 5s were what the person sewing the covers liked.
On a side note, the French haversacks that Laurent found a few years ago, were so mint that they were thought to be reproduction by some, so it is pretty clear that the condition can not be a condemning factor.
Looking at Joe's 83 Überzug, it does look to be sewn with a zigzag machine that is out of adjustment, but if so, there is a very big difference in the angle and width of the zigzags. There has to be information on the machines that were available at the time, and what dimentions their stitches would be, as I suspect that they were not adjustable in width and number of stitches per inch/cm. Off hand, I would think a chain stich would be the most common used.
Best
Gus
The comment that they sold cheap $45-$50US is a bit missleading, at that time $50 was a very large sum for a bit of cloth, M1915 Pickelhauben were trading for not much more than that.
We do know that zigzag machines did exsist, and it is reasonalbe to believe that there were sewing machine opperators who could adjust them correctly, and it would be reasonable that a lot that were found together would be sewn by the same opperator, but I have a problem with the numbers of the regiments, and to know that 55 was included in the lot is even more interesting, it would seem that 1s and 5s were what the person sewing the covers liked.
On a side note, the French haversacks that Laurent found a few years ago, were so mint that they were thought to be reproduction by some, so it is pretty clear that the condition can not be a condemning factor.
Looking at Joe's 83 Überzug, it does look to be sewn with a zigzag machine that is out of adjustment, but if so, there is a very big difference in the angle and width of the zigzags. There has to be information on the machines that were available at the time, and what dimentions their stitches would be, as I suspect that they were not adjustable in width and number of stitches per inch/cm. Off hand, I would think a chain stich would be the most common used.
Best
Gus
stephane_avesnes
New member
Hi Gus,
concerning the price of spiked helmets, let's say that at the end of the 70s a pattern 1915 would have sold for 75-90 USD, during the 80s prices rose and at the end of the 80s, prices were around 150-200 USD. For instance, I bought a very nice complete and well marked Prussian 1895 pattern in 1989 for more than 300 USD, a huge amount of money, from a dealer, a bit expensive compared to the average price on the current market,
so saying that sold for 45 USD in the early 90s (or end of 80s) was cheap is not misleading, but that's a French point of view, since prices were much lower in the US, explaining the "rush to west" during the 1990s and later. I noticed myself in the period 2000-2006 a huge difference between US/Europe on ebay, and at the 2009 SOS, I could buy a lot of good stuff 30-40-50 % cheaper than here, .... I hope to come next year for SoS 2011
concerning numbers, 1 and 5 yes, but also 3 and 7,
hope this helps
Steve
concerning the price of spiked helmets, let's say that at the end of the 70s a pattern 1915 would have sold for 75-90 USD, during the 80s prices rose and at the end of the 80s, prices were around 150-200 USD. For instance, I bought a very nice complete and well marked Prussian 1895 pattern in 1989 for more than 300 USD, a huge amount of money, from a dealer, a bit expensive compared to the average price on the current market,
so saying that sold for 45 USD in the early 90s (or end of 80s) was cheap is not misleading, but that's a French point of view, since prices were much lower in the US, explaining the "rush to west" during the 1990s and later. I noticed myself in the period 2000-2006 a huge difference between US/Europe on ebay, and at the 2009 SOS, I could buy a lot of good stuff 30-40-50 % cheaper than here,
.... I hope to come next year for SoS 2011 concerning numbers, 1 and 5 yes, but also 3 and 7,
hope this helps
Steve
Gustaf said:
in the cave cover were 55 to.
15 51 55 73, The numbers work by permutations, and the techniques of manufacturings are really identical in all respects...And it is really suspect
for the datation we will use Cs137, who can to have the answer : before or after 1945. It's cheap and good for all the militaria for the périod.
Actually the zigzag loby say, Only sewing zigzag are statutory for the red figures...
the other sewing are not the rule.
The world's gone crazy
reservist1
Member
For what it is worth, here are some close ups of the numerals on an OJR 91 cover that are sewn with a zig zag stitch. The cover is also unit marked on the inside back.
Reservist1
Hi,
First, I don't collect German covers, but such a topic on the French Forum HM with more than 5.000 visits is really incredible and like others I look at it.
As I wrote in HistoiréMilitaria1418, the situation is going more and more confused and confusing.
As far we quickly reached a consensus on the covers themselves, as far as we put out all stories about the "famous" discoverd stockpiles, the debate is mainly concentrated on the type of red numbers' Zigzag stitching, roughly:
- either very accuretly made
- or irregular and hand-made finished.
This is the techncical core of the discussion.
At this time, there are two opposite groups, firmely defending theirs positions. One is mainly manned by owners and sellers.
If some member of Pickelhaubes.com would intervene and come with historical proves it will be better than just comparing covers stored in private collections as we are doing now ("mine is genuine!", "no, yours is a fake!").
For this reason, several readers are saying that the discussion is going boring.
And for young collectors of German covers, it is really difficult to understand what is true or not. I think, they will just give up this specific collection (too expensive, too uncertain), if there are no more guidelines than just "mine is genuine".
As IR76 mentioned, some fear is spreading because of the uncertainity (and probably difficulty to authentify the items definitely).
The feeling is there is something wrong: but what exactly? It is word against word. And it is probably old stories and old affairs coming from the past to the light: it is extremely difficult to separate what is personal affairs and what is really linked to the covers themselves.
It was just my opinion. I am unable to say what is true or not. It doesn't help too much, isn't it ?
I hope I was the more neutral I want to be.
Best regards,
First, I don't collect German covers, but such a topic on the French Forum HM with more than 5.000 visits is really incredible and like others I look at it.
As I wrote in HistoiréMilitaria1418, the situation is going more and more confused and confusing.
As far we quickly reached a consensus on the covers themselves, as far as we put out all stories about the "famous" discoverd stockpiles, the debate is mainly concentrated on the type of red numbers' Zigzag stitching, roughly:
- either very accuretly made
- or irregular and hand-made finished.
This is the techncical core of the discussion.
At this time, there are two opposite groups, firmely defending theirs positions. One is mainly manned by owners and sellers.
If some member of Pickelhaubes.com would intervene and come with historical proves it will be better than just comparing covers stored in private collections as we are doing now ("mine is genuine!", "no, yours is a fake!").
For this reason, several readers are saying that the discussion is going boring.
And for young collectors of German covers, it is really difficult to understand what is true or not. I think, they will just give up this specific collection (too expensive, too uncertain), if there are no more guidelines than just "mine is genuine".
As IR76 mentioned, some fear is spreading because of the uncertainity (and probably difficulty to authentify the items definitely).
The feeling is there is something wrong: but what exactly? It is word against word. And it is probably old stories and old affairs coming from the past to the light: it is extremely difficult to separate what is personal affairs and what is really linked to the covers themselves.
It was just my opinion. I am unable to say what is true or not. It doesn't help too much, isn't it ?
I hope I was the more neutral I want to be.
Best regards,
reservist1 said:
This gets more interesting as more examples come to light, Your 91 cover has the same type of fabric as the two other examples at the beginning of this thread, it also has the same zigzag stitching, this one looks to be old, and is not in the list of numbers found in the “discovered cache of covers" does this indicat that the others could be original? Even though we are not getting any solid answers to the question, I think this is something that will eventually be solved, as more information is accumulated.
Best
Gus
reservist1
Member
One of the central issues in this debate seems to be the question, was machine zig zag stitching used in Germany in the pre 1918 time period?
While not directly related to the attachment of numerals to covers, an interlocking dual zig zag stitch was used in the construction of officer style helmet covers. Specifically the seam for the front and rear visor pockets. Again for what it is worth, here are photos of the described stitching on an infantry officer and artillery officer cover. The same style stitching can be seen on page 1 of this thread, specifically the 92nd officer cover, the private purchase jaeger cover and the Cuirassier officer cover.
Reservist1
While not directly related to the attachment of numerals to covers, an interlocking dual zig zag stitch was used in the construction of officer style helmet covers. Specifically the seam for the front and rear visor pockets. Again for what it is worth, here are photos of the described stitching on an infantry officer and artillery officer cover. The same style stitching can be seen on page 1 of this thread, specifically the 92nd officer cover, the private purchase jaeger cover and the Cuirassier officer cover.
Reservist1
reservist1 said:
Exactly. See how close and tight the zig-zag is on these officer Überzug? Compare to the very large wide zig-zag on the questionable Überzug . I just visited a friend of mine with an amazing collection of Überzug, and most are hand sewn or vertical machine sewn, but a few have zig-zag and those are very close and tight like the stitch pattern you show on these officer Überzug.
Lost Skeleton
Well-known member
All I can add to the discussion is the following: My FR 73 Helmbezug was purchased from AGM, where I know Jeff would have subjected both the cloth and stitching to black light examination. This procedure, intended to reveal synthetic fibers, is far from an exact science as false positives have been known to occur (particularly if period cloth has been washed in laundry detergent containing phosphate). Though I can't, for the moment, recall the provenance of my IR 15 Helmbezug, I believe it was also purchased from AGM.
I can assure the reader that the material and construction of the FR 73 and IR 15 covers are identical in every respect to the 2. Rheinisches Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 23 specimen discussed and illustrated on page one of this topic (a Helmbezug mated to its matching Kugelhelm). Though the regimental numbers may be a bone of contention, the covers themselves are above suspicion.
With respect to felt numerals and zigzag stitching, my examples are consistent with R1's OIR 91 example and those pictured in the Jürgen Kraus reference, Die deutsche Armee im Ersten Weltkrieg. It is important to acknowledge that the FR 73, IR 15, FAR 23, and OIR 91 covers represent pre-war configuration, per directive, and it is not unreasonable to expect a greater degree of precision and quality in their construction.
What does this prove? Absolutely nothing. I wasn't around when these covers were manufactured. Who, questioning them today, was? Nothing R1, Tony, I, or anyone else can write on this subject will convince the avowed skeptic.
A final word on stitching. Long before powered flight, hot air and, later, gas balloons elevated man from his terrestrial bonds. What held those silk envelopes together and minimized the escape of hydrogen gas? Sewn seams. How rudimentary could sewing machines have been when the tolerances required for balloon fabrication were so critical and demanding? Likewise, examine the stitching on any Waffenrock or M1910 Bluse (particularly the reverse side of the collar) and then tell me the technology was lacking to sew felt cloth using a zigzag stitch.
Again, I'm not concerned whether anyone can (or should) be convinced these covers are genuine. What bothers me is the wholly speculative, dismissive attitude refuting the enterprise, ingenuity, and invention of our industrialized antecedents. As for a "Digital" sewing machine being prerequisite for producing a uniform zigzag stitch…
Now, that's what I call hard to believe.
I can assure the reader that the material and construction of the FR 73 and IR 15 covers are identical in every respect to the 2. Rheinisches Feldartillerie-Regiment Nr. 23 specimen discussed and illustrated on page one of this topic (a Helmbezug mated to its matching Kugelhelm). Though the regimental numbers may be a bone of contention, the covers themselves are above suspicion.
With respect to felt numerals and zigzag stitching, my examples are consistent with R1's OIR 91 example and those pictured in the Jürgen Kraus reference, Die deutsche Armee im Ersten Weltkrieg. It is important to acknowledge that the FR 73, IR 15, FAR 23, and OIR 91 covers represent pre-war configuration, per directive, and it is not unreasonable to expect a greater degree of precision and quality in their construction.
What does this prove? Absolutely nothing. I wasn't around when these covers were manufactured. Who, questioning them today, was? Nothing R1, Tony, I, or anyone else can write on this subject will convince the avowed skeptic.
A final word on stitching. Long before powered flight, hot air and, later, gas balloons elevated man from his terrestrial bonds. What held those silk envelopes together and minimized the escape of hydrogen gas? Sewn seams. How rudimentary could sewing machines have been when the tolerances required for balloon fabrication were so critical and demanding? Likewise, examine the stitching on any Waffenrock or M1910 Bluse (particularly the reverse side of the collar) and then tell me the technology was lacking to sew felt cloth using a zigzag stitch.
Again, I'm not concerned whether anyone can (or should) be convinced these covers are genuine. What bothers me is the wholly speculative, dismissive attitude refuting the enterprise, ingenuity, and invention of our industrialized antecedents. As for a "Digital" sewing machine being prerequisite for producing a uniform zigzag stitch…
Now, that's what I call hard to believe.