M15 Bluse - Saxon 22nd Pioneer Battalion
- Thread starter flasheart
- Start date
CHip,
Beautiful tunics. They make mine look a little shabby - although I do like it because it is so obviously used. The wool is also extremely rough and the liner is of a very poor quality cotton. It was manufactured in 1918, and I am guessing this must have been made near the end of the war. I even wonder if it includes nettle fibres because it is so rough.
I see what you mean about no foldover on the collar. I checked my two M15 greatcoats and their collar facings are stitched on in a very similar manner to my bluse; ie, 1/4" foldover around the edge.
Mike
Beautiful tunics. They make mine look a little shabby - although I do like it because it is so obviously used. The wool is also extremely rough and the liner is of a very poor quality cotton. It was manufactured in 1918, and I am guessing this must have been made near the end of the war. I even wonder if it includes nettle fibres because it is so rough.
I see what you mean about no foldover on the collar. I checked my two M15 greatcoats and their collar facings are stitched on in a very similar manner to my bluse; ie, 1/4" foldover around the edge.
Mike
With this Bluse marked 'BA XIX 18', '22P', and with gray painted M15 pocket buttons (Pioneers), I am close to certain that this was issued to the Saxon 22nd Pioneer Battalion of XIX Corps. Johan Somers book on the Imperial German Army's uniforms (Vol 1), shows a Saxon belt buckle marked '22.P.' for 22nd Pioneers. The oddity is that the collar is faced in feldgrau rather than resedagrun. The Saxon XIX Corps was from Wesern Saxony which bordered on Bavaria - does that explain a Bavarian type bluse in Saxon service?
Here is a photo of the lads of the Saxon 22nd Pioneer Battalion. I bid a hefty price for this photo on ebay but unfortunately somebody else wanted it more than I did, so I am just borrowing it here.
11 of the soldiers wear the Bluse, and it appears that at least two of them have the bluse cuffs removed, maybe one of them is my tunic!!!
Difficult to tell in a 90 year old B&W photo if the collars are faced in resedagrun as you would expect or if some collars may be in feldgrau like mine is. Some of the bluse collars are clearly a different texture and tone from the tunic cloth while others appear to match the tunic cloth closely in texture and tone.
Mike
Here is a photo of the lads of the Saxon 22nd Pioneer Battalion. I bid a hefty price for this photo on ebay but unfortunately somebody else wanted it more than I did, so I am just borrowing it here.
11 of the soldiers wear the Bluse, and it appears that at least two of them have the bluse cuffs removed, maybe one of them is my tunic!!!
Difficult to tell in a 90 year old B&W photo if the collars are faced in resedagrun as you would expect or if some collars may be in feldgrau like mine is. Some of the bluse collars are clearly a different texture and tone from the tunic cloth while others appear to match the tunic cloth closely in texture and tone.
Mike
Gents,
You may remember this thread on the 'BA XIX 1918', '22P' (Saxon XIX Armee Korps, 22nd Pioneer Battalion) marked M1915 Bluse. The dilemma was that the bluse has a feldgrau collar like a Bavarian M16 rather than the resedagrun collar like a Prussian M15 Bluse.
I have just acquired a Bavarian pattern M1916 greatcoat, not as nice as Gus's but not a bad piece. Unfortunately the depot marking has smudged and is unreadable. However, on the back of the neck is written the owners name and unit 'Kagys(?) 3/134'. I can't quite make out the name but the unit mark is quite clear - 3/134 (3rd Battalion, 134th Infantry Regiment). The 134th was a Saxon Infantry Regiment, XIX Korps.
In my collecting experience, I have now seen and handled a grand total of two feldgrau uniform items with original markings to the Saxon XIX Korps, and both are original, unaltered pieces, both with feldgrau collars rather than resedagrun collars. Conventional wisdom says that this is not correct, but how to explain it?
The XIX Korps region is in western Saxony and borders on the much larger state of Bavaria. Would XIX Korps have drawn on Bavaria for uniform supplies.
Mike
You may remember this thread on the 'BA XIX 1918', '22P' (Saxon XIX Armee Korps, 22nd Pioneer Battalion) marked M1915 Bluse. The dilemma was that the bluse has a feldgrau collar like a Bavarian M16 rather than the resedagrun collar like a Prussian M15 Bluse.
I have just acquired a Bavarian pattern M1916 greatcoat, not as nice as Gus's but not a bad piece. Unfortunately the depot marking has smudged and is unreadable. However, on the back of the neck is written the owners name and unit 'Kagys(?) 3/134'. I can't quite make out the name but the unit mark is quite clear - 3/134 (3rd Battalion, 134th Infantry Regiment). The 134th was a Saxon Infantry Regiment, XIX Korps.
In my collecting experience, I have now seen and handled a grand total of two feldgrau uniform items with original markings to the Saxon XIX Korps, and both are original, unaltered pieces, both with feldgrau collars rather than resedagrun collars. Conventional wisdom says that this is not correct, but how to explain it?
The XIX Korps region is in western Saxony and borders on the much larger state of Bavaria. Would XIX Korps have drawn on Bavaria for uniform supplies.
Mike
joerookery
Well-known member
Mike,
I don't know but one thing is interesting is that the neighboring Bavarian III Corps had no peacetime Bekleidungsamt -- I am not sure of the marking for Bavarian III Corps. I believe it is somehow connected to the "BD" marking but I do not know how. -- -- yet.
HI
If you are looking for explaination of your tunic. Your tunic was once a M15 Prussian or Bavarian tunic. After the war the tunic was put to use either as work jacket or civilian coat for some poor chap. Reason , the missing shoulder straps and buttons then the belt ramps and side hooks. The collar looks to be modified as well. Heck it could have been a Prussian M15 tunic at one time. Who Knows? The sleeves have been modified.You can wish all you want that it was field or wartime done. This is not case on this tunic. It is what it is . M15 Prussian or Bavarian tunic that was converted to a work jacket or civilian coat after the war. I learned from hard experience from these tunics. In the past I had 4 button, 5 button and just about all kinds of modified tunics that people are claiming they are untouched wartime. At the end , they are all post war modified tunics that were tampered with. Sorry for the bad news. You can wish and speculate all you want. This is what it is. Thanks Joe Semen
If you are looking for explaination of your tunic. Your tunic was once a M15 Prussian or Bavarian tunic. After the war the tunic was put to use either as work jacket or civilian coat for some poor chap. Reason , the missing shoulder straps and buttons then the belt ramps and side hooks. The collar looks to be modified as well. Heck it could have been a Prussian M15 tunic at one time. Who Knows? The sleeves have been modified.You can wish all you want that it was field or wartime done. This is not case on this tunic. It is what it is . M15 Prussian or Bavarian tunic that was converted to a work jacket or civilian coat after the war. I learned from hard experience from these tunics. In the past I had 4 button, 5 button and just about all kinds of modified tunics that people are claiming they are untouched wartime. At the end , they are all post war modified tunics that were tampered with. Sorry for the bad news. You can wish and speculate all you want. This is what it is. Thanks Joe Semen
Joe,
I think we had already established that the removal of the belt ramps and hooks was a post-war modification for civilian use; the replacement of the collar button probably post-war; the removal of the cuffs could be wartime or post-war, probably the latter. So, certainly, the Bluse was used by a civilian post-war, as was common practice in many nations. The question now is: Why are uniforms of apparently Bavarian pattern being issued in one of the Saxon Corps?
Mike
I think we had already established that the removal of the belt ramps and hooks was a post-war modification for civilian use; the replacement of the collar button probably post-war; the removal of the cuffs could be wartime or post-war, probably the latter. So, certainly, the Bluse was used by a civilian post-war, as was common practice in many nations. The question now is: Why are uniforms of apparently Bavarian pattern being issued in one of the Saxon Corps?
Mike
If the depot marking are to a Saxon corp or regiment then the tunic was once a m15 Prussian Bluse. Without having hands on. The barrel cuffs looked to be removed. The collar looks to be modified, so good chance in it's previous life had one time the prussian green cloth collar. This only logic explaination for the depot marking to a Saxon corp or regiment.
Thanks Joe Semen
Thanks Joe Semen