Maker's Mark - States

[Peter B]

I just received a Pickelhaube that has the Alexander Dahl Helmfabrik –Barmen, Ritterhausen maker's mark and it has the wrong wappen on it.

The grommet holes are very close together (5.5 cm or 2 1/8 inches) and Brian thinks that may indicate a Saxon or Bavarian Wappen. They are also very small holes. My question is would/could a Dahl manufactured pickelhaube have been used by Saxony or Bavaria?

I'll post some pictures later from home.

Thanks.

Peter

 

[Lars13]

Hi Peter,
Imo Bavaria is less likely, as they did things different than Prussia, but I don't see any issue with Saxony.
I think the manufacturers were allowed to bid on out-of-state work.
I have three Pickelhauben with legible maker's marks, all for units in Westfalen (VII. A.K.), two manufacturers from Westfalen, one from Berlin.
Regards,
Lars

 

[CLOVIS 57]

It will be necessary to examine the neck cover on the left-inside side. In general, Saxon helmets are marked vertically with BA XII or XIX. The spacing of the eyelets at 5.5cm, effectively reflects a Saxon or Bavarian spacing.
On the other hand, it is very unlikely that a helmet made in the Ruhr region (Wupperthal) will be intended for the Bavarian army. This particular kingdom, indeed, had its own suppliers. Other clues can guide us: traces of the Saxon star in the rubber, folding latches of the tip base rivets, of tapered shape, etc...

 

[Peter B]

Hi Peter,
Imo Bavaria is less likely, as they did things different than Prussia, but I don't see any issue with Saxony.
I think the manufacturers were allowed to bid on out-of-state work.
I have three Pickelhauben with legible maker's marks, all for units in Westfalen (VII. A.K.), two manufacturers from Westfalen, one from Berlin.
Regards,
Lars

Thanks Lars. I was only thinking of Bavaria or Saxony as Brian said holes close together like that are often from those states. It could well be Prussian as well I suppose with a smaller wappen maybe? I'll have to check my first Pickelhaube, which is Prussian, and very small, and see if the holes on that one are also very close together. I was kind of hoping Bavarian as I don't have a Bavarian ORs Pickelhaube.

 

[Peter B]

Il faudra bien examiner le couvre-nuque du coté gauche-intérieur. En général les casques saxons sont marqués verticalement du B.A. XII ou XIX. L'écartement des œillets à 5,5cm, traduit effectivement un écartement saxon ou bavarois.
Par contre, il est très peu probable qu'un casque confectionné dans la région de la Ruhr (Wupperthal) soit destiné à l'armée Bavaroise. Ce royaume particulier, avait en effet ses propres fournisseurs. D'autres indices peuvent nous aiguiller : traces de l'étoile saxonne dans le caoutchène, linguets repliables des rivets d'embase de pointe, de forme effilée etc...

Merci - je vais examiner le casque ce soir après le travail.

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Pas question que ce soit un aigle prussien. Le plus petit écart est à 7 cm.

 

[Lars13]

and very small

Hi Peter,
The Wappen size doesn’t change with helmet size, so the distance between the grommets remains the same for each Wappen type, but maybe ther is some manufacturer’s variation?
Regards,
Lars

 

[Peter B]

Hi Peter,
The Wappen size doesn’t change with helmet size, so the distance between the grommets remains the same for each Wappen type, but maybe ther is some manufacturer’s variation?
Regards,
Lars

Thanks Lars. Clovis says the minimum distance for a Prussian Wappen is 7 centimetres between the grommets.

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

Here’s a Maker’s Mark Peter. With a Bavarian.

 

[Peter B]

Here’s a Maker’s Mark Peter. With a Bavarian.

View attachment 32204

That's great Tony. I did find another post where you have a Bavarian helmet with a Berlin maker's mark so it is probably not completely out of the question that my helmet could be Bavarian. There are no markings other than the maker's mark and year. I am going to put a Bavarian Wappen on it. The same one I sold to Will for his Bavarian Bing helmet - but it did not fit - and he is selling it back to me. It was on a helmet with Saxon markings that I posted a while back that I got a Saxon Wappen for from James. Will be posting some pictures soon.

 

[Peter B]

Here are some pictures. As you can see some idiot attached a Prussian Wappen with brass screws. Hopefully the Bavarian Wappen will cover the screw holes or I'll have to learn how to fill them.

Interesting paint on the Wappen though. Stamped 1915 but sure looks like an 1895.

Helmet is in really good shape and not as bad as the flash makes some of the small cracks look.

 

[Amybellars]

Peter, the brass studs holding the spike do not seem original to me.

What's the measurement between the 2 brass eyelets?

Regards
Amy Bellars

 

[Peter B]

Good eye Amy. It did not have studs when I got it. The ones I put on are from my Private Purchase helmet I posted here: https://www.pickelhaubes.com/xf/threads/strange-prussian-officer-update.17443/#post-125562 that had these instead of officer stars. They look like original Private Purchase studs to me.

 

[Amybellars]

Peter, I have my doubts on the studs. The private purchase one usually have screw posts. The studs that you have on this helmet have prongs that are too thin. I have original brass studs if u need.

I will measure my Saxon and bavarian helmets to see which one takes 5.5cm . Sometimes different manufacturers produced the wappen with loops with slightly different measurements , just a slight.

 

[Peter B]

Thanks Amy. My Saxon is about 5.5 - 6 cms between the eyelets.

 

[Peter B]

Got my Bavarian Wappen back from Will today. Fit's like it was supposed to be there!

Peter

 

[Amybellars]

Nice

 

[b.loree]

The collection continues to grow!

 

[coert65]

I am glad it finally worked out with the Bavarian helmet!
Very nice collection Peter.

 

[Peter B]

I am glad it finally worked out with the Bavarian helmet!
Very nice collection Peter.

Thanks Coert.