My Great-Great-Grandfather Wilhelm Wagner c1880

TaylorRiess

New member
I've recently been researching Imperial German uniforms in an attempt to gleam whatever information I can from this photo of my great great grandfather. This ended up leading me here so I thought I'd share:
View attachment Wilhelm Bavarian Military.jpg
The only relevant information I know is that he was Bavarian, he was born in 1861, and he left for America in 1884. So far I've learned enough to know that he's an Ulan, judging by the cut of his tunic and the pointed cuffs. But beyond that, I've had a hard time figuring out what all the accessories mean because I have no idea what any of them are called.

That being said, after learning about the various tracks that could be taken to fulfill mandatory service, I think he's a one-year volunteer who's become an unteroffizier. I say this partly because I imagine it was pretty damn expensive to have your picture taken in 1880, and that anyone who had the money to do that would have the money to be a one-year.

Anyways, I though you guys would like this photo. I haven't seen a lot of photos from this early time period before so I hope it's valuable. I would also appreciate anyone who can gleam more information from the photo about what he was doing in the army. Interestingly, his stated reason for leaving Bavaria for America was Germany's increasing militarism.
 
Hi Taylor,
Welcome to the forum! Congratulations on this picture of your early ancestor.
I'm no expert on these early uniforms, but Bavarian Ulan seems to fit as far as I can see.
Military service was an important event in imperial Germany, and many soldiers got their picture taken in uniform at least once, so I don't think this implies that he must be a one-year volunteer and Unteroffizier, if he is it should be visible in his uniform.
Regards,
Lars
 
Hello Taylor and welcome to the forum.
Unfortunately I don't know much about uniforms either, but what I can tell you is that the mounted units were very special at the time. Ordinary people were only recruited to the infantry. The fact that he was a member of the Ulans means that he came from a good family background.
The reason that he left Germany because of the growing militarism can be explained by the fact that the Kingdom of Bavaria was integrated into the German Empire at the time and the Bavarian military was reorganized in accordance with the Prussian system. As a result, there were some major changes in the military at the time, which didn't please every Bavarian patriot. Traditionally, the southern German elite was rather friendly towards France while Prussia was viewed unfavorably. But the common people wanted a united Germany.
 
Hello and welcome to the forum. Would you happen to know what town he came from? That may help, I believe there were only two Bavarian Uhlan units. regards John Josef.
Unfortunately I have no idea what town he was from. I only know his family ran an inn. I'm planning on heading to the mormon familysearch archives in Salt Lake City because they have a record that supposedly lists the name of every unteroffizier in the Bavarian army during this time. Maybe that would tell me more about where he was from and what unit he was in. But since I'm not sure if he's an unteroffizier or not, that may not work.
 
Hi Taylor,
there are informations about a photo studio (+ town name) on the photograph (CdV).
The 1. Ulan-Rgt. was in Barnberg, the 2. Ulan-Rgt. was in Ansbach.
Best regards, Jens
Unfortunately I don't have the full original picture. I've been trying to track down the original photograph to see if there's information about where it was taken, but after 5 generations, it could be a lot of places.
 
Hi Taylor,
Welcome to the forum! Congratulations on this picture of your early ancestor.
I'm no expert on these early uniforms, but Bavarian Ulan seems to fit as far as I can see.
Military service was an important event in imperial Germany, and many soldiers got their picture taken in uniform at least once, so I don't think this implies that he must be a one-year volunteer and Unteroffizier, if he is it should be visible in his uniform.
Regards,
Lars
Yeah I just can't figure out how to research all these weird ornaments and what they mean. I can't Google stuff like "2 cords hanging from shoulders" and have that mean anything. There must be some sort of very long German name to describe all this stuff that I don't know. What does having a sword mean? Why does he not have a collar? Very confusing
 
Getting photos taken was pretty common for the rank and file at the time. There are tons available on ebay today. He is wearing a Bavarian Uhlan uniform ( you can tell from the cut of the jacket, it would be green), the cords are a standard part of the Uhlan uniform called a Fangschnur. He is carrying a Bavarian Cavalry saber, the cord on the handle indicates he is enlisted (as does the Fangschnur)
 
can't Google stuff like "2 cords hanging from shoulders" and have that mean anything. There must be some sort of very long German name to describe all this stuff that I don't know. What does having a sword mean? Why does he not have a collar?
Well it could take you here, or to my website below. Have a look at this article on my site Ulanen. Old, but relevant.
Unfortunately I no longer have Bayern Ulanka to show you. But some of our members sure can. I’m sure will soon see some high quality Ulanka and Tschapka (helmet). Watch.
 
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Hello Taylor,

You now have the names of the two Bavarian regiments that he possibly would have belonged to. If you have his full name maybe a member here would be able to help you identify exactly which one. Several have access to unit rosters.

The sword just means he was a member of the Uhlans and this is the type of Sword that was issued.

The Helmet you can barely make out to his right sitting on the table is called a Czapka that is the type of helmet issued to Uhlan Regiments of the time.

The Uhlans would have also been issued a Lance not in the picture.

The cords hanging around his shoulder are called Fangschnur, they were attached to the helmet when riding so that if it fell off you wouldn't lose it. This type is the type issued to an enlisted man it would be made of better materials had he been an officer.

Hope this helps a bit.. regards John Josef
 
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Hello Taylor,

You know have the names of the two Bavarian regiments that he possibly would have belonged to. If you have his full name maybe a member here would be able to help you identify exactly which one. Several have access to unit rosters.

The sword just means he was a member of the Uhlans and this is the type of Sword that was issued.

The Helmet you can barely make out to his right sitting on the table is called a Czapka that is the type of helmet issued to Uhlan Regiments of the time.

The Uhlans would have also been issued a Lance not in the picture.

The cords hanging around his shoulder are called Fangschnur, they were attached to the helmet when riding so that if it fell off you wouldn't lose it. This type is the type issued to an enlisted man it would be made of better materials had he been an officer.

Hope this helps a bit.. regards John Josef
Wow this is super helpful. Definitely changes things to know he was a regular enlisted man. A problem I've noticed is that he was born November 1861, he would have reported for duty October 1881, and his three years would be up sometime in 1884. Census records indicate that he came to the US in September 1884. Does this make sense, or did he leave early? I've found good sources to answer this but it seems like the rules for when you serve and for how long change a lot over time.

Also, if anyone has access to the Bavarian Ulan rosters from 1881-1884, his full name was Wilhelm Friedrich Wagner. I can't image I'd be lucky enough for that to happen, but maybe someone could find him.

Thanks so much,
Taylor
 
Well it could take you here, or to my website below. Have a look at this article on my site Ulanen. Old, but relevant.
Unfortunately I no longer have Bayern Ulanka to show you. But some of our members sure can. I’m sure will soon see some high quality Ulanka and Tschapka (helmet). Watch.
Hey, I used your site to figure out he was an Ulan to begin with, so thanks. Something I was confused with was the Fangschnur (just learned that word) types from the Ulan Plate 2. I thought it indicated that anyone with a Fangschnur was a type of officer, but it's clear to me now that everyone had one and the officers just had fancier ones. Based on everyone in this thread it seems pretty definitive that he was a regular enlisted soldier, which clears things up a lot.

Your website was a huge help and one of the first resources I found.

Thanks,
Taylor
 
Getting photos taken was pretty common for the rank and file at the time. There are tons available on ebay today. He is wearing a Bavarian Uhlan uniform ( you can tell from the cut of the jacket, it would be green), the cords are a standard part of the Uhlan uniform called a Fangschnur. He is carrying a Bavarian Cavalry saber, the cord on the handle indicates he is enlisted (as does the Fangschnur)
Very interesting, I guess I hadn't seen many photos from this time that were dated. My impression was only the fancy lads got there pictures taken during this time, but it makes sense that it was common now that I know he was a regular enlisted soldier.

Thanks so much,
Taylor
 
Hello Taylor and welcome to the forum.
Unfortunately I don't know much about uniforms either, but what I can tell you is that the mounted units were very special at the time. Ordinary people were only recruited to the infantry. The fact that he was a member of the Ulans means that he came from a good family background.
The reason that he left Germany because of the growing militarism can be explained by the fact that the Kingdom of Bavaria was integrated into the German Empire at the time and the Bavarian military was reorganized in accordance with the Prussian system. As a result, there were some major changes in the military at the time, which didn't please every Bavarian patriot. Traditionally, the southern German elite was rather friendly towards France while Prussia was viewed unfavorably. But the common people wanted a united Germany.
Yeah everything I've learned about the changes to the Bavarian army at this time makes perfect sense with his reason for leaving. Before I thought that he might have just said that so he didn't get lynched during WWI or something, but it makes sense that he was actually seeing very significant changes to Bavarian army culture at the time.

Another thing he mentioned is that he was particularly weirded out by civilians jumping off the sidewalk when a man in uniform was walking towards them. I wonder if that was something he noticed change, or if he was just uncomfortable when people did it for him?
 
Very interesting, I guess I hadn't seen many photos from this time that were dated. My impression was only the fancy lads got there pictures taken during this time, but it makes sense that it was common now that I know he was a regular enlisted soldier.

Thanks so much,
Taylor
My screen photo is my 2nd Great Grandfather as a member of the 13th Uhlan Regt (Hannover). Taken around the same time as your photo was (1880) I have the original photo
 
Getting photos taken was pretty common for the rank and file at the time. There are tons available on ebay today. He is wearing a Bavarian Uhlan uniform ( you can tell from the cut of the jacket, it would be green), the cords are a standard part of the Uhlan uniform called a Fangschnur. He is carrying a Bavarian Cavalry saber, the cord on the handle indicates he is enlisted (as does the Fangschnur)
Yes , I agree .
He is wearing a Fangshnur
only the Uhlans would have this in Bavarian Military
Steve
 
Unfortunately I don't have the full original picture. I've been trying to track down the original photograph to see if there's information about where it was taken, but after 5 generations, it could be a lot of places.

Unfortunately I have no idea what town he was from. I only know his family ran an inn. I'm planning on heading to the mormon familysearch archives in Salt Lake City because they have a record that supposedly lists the name of every unteroffizier in the Bavarian army during this time. Maybe that would tell me more about where he was from and what unit he was in. But since I'm not sure if he's an unteroffizier or not, that may not work.
 
Hi Taylor.
I would like to introduce you to my items from Bavaria.Ulanen Regiment 1 and 2.Greetings.
Wojtek
 

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Hi Taylor.
I would like to introduce you to my items from Bavaria.Ulanen Regiment 1 and 2.Greetings.
Wojtek
Great! My great-grandfather served in UR 2 and there in Ansbach he met his future wife, my great-grandmother 😃👍

Unfortunately my grandmother threw away his uniform in the 1950s. After WW 2 she wanted no longer to keep his old stuff. Later she apologized to me and said that she never had imagined that her grandson would be interested in it one day...

Best wishes,

GardeUlan
 
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