My Kurrasier and JzP M15's

JohnM

Member
2uhrd76.jpg


iollxh.jpg
 

Sandmann

Well-known member
Wow! Simply Wow :bravo:
I love these metal helmets. Hopefully I will find one which is in my pay-comfort-zone :D
 

b.loree

Administrator
Staff member
That is a very very nice collection indeed, well done! I am wondering though, why 4 Kurassier examples? Perhaps all marked to different Regiments, sizes or makers??
 

Arran

Member
Very cool! I'm seeing a few different makers represented judging from the shapes of the skulls and visors...
 

woznotwos

New member
This will be me in a few years time. :D I've just purchased my first lobster (with advice gratefully received from the forum). I'm now already looking at my other helmets and medals wondering what to sell to fund the next one. I'm hooked.
 

coert65

Active member
woznotwos said:
This will be me in a few years time. :D I've just purchased my first lobster (with advice gratefully received from the forum). I'm now already looking at my other helmets and medals wondering what to sell to fund the next one. I'm hooked.

You just cannot beat the Pickelhaube virus :wink: ! I bought my first one 9 years or so, now I got ten, and more Imperial German stuff I could only dream about before I started...
By the way, did you buy the one we saw in the New additions topic? If you want the bigger cavalry kokarden for it I still have 2, but they are repro's.
Let me know if you are interested in them.

Have a nice day!

Greetings, Coert. :)
 

woznotwos

New member
coert65 said:
woznotwos said:
This will be me in a few years time. :D I've just purchased my first lobster (with advice gratefully received from the forum). I'm now already looking at my other helmets and medals wondering what to sell to fund the next one. I'm hooked.

You just cannot beat the Pickelhaube virus :wink: ! I bought my first one 9 years or so, now I got ten, and more Imperial German stuff I could only dream about before I started...
By the way, did you buy the one we saw in the New additions topic? If you want the bigger cavalry kokarden for it I still have 2, but they are repro's.
Let me know if you are interested in them.

Have a nice day!

Greetings, Coert. :)
Sent you a pm but its stuck in my outbox. Is yours full Coert ?
 

coert65

Active member
Hi Warren, I got your mail, so everything is okay. My sent-box also stay's full, when I sent a message.
I will send you a picture of my cavalry repro's, further info via Pm.

Greetings, Coert :thumb up:
 

SkipperJohn

Active member
coert65 said:
woznotwos said:
This will be me in a few years time. :D I've just purchased my first lobster (with advice gratefully received from the forum). I'm now already looking at my other helmets and medals wondering what to sell to fund the next one. I'm hooked.

You just cannot beat the Pickelhaube virus :wink: ! I bought my first one 9 years or so, now I got ten, and more Imperial German stuff I could only dream about before I started...
By the way, did you buy the one we saw in the New additions topic? If you want the bigger cavalry kokarden for it I still have 2, but they are repro's.
Let me know if you are interested in them.

Have a nice day!

Greetings, Coert. :)

I feel it necessary to interject a comment here. On another post I had mentioned that Model 1915 Kurassier and Jager zu Pferde helmets could be found with smaller Kokarden and that this was entirely proper. I was met with criticism and found it better to drop the subject than to argue my point. It now appears that someone is thinking of replacing perfectly legitimate small Kokarden with reproductions because a random statement was made on this forum. I also know that many of our members do not have faith in books written on the subject of Pickelhauben and would rather rely upon the internet and other sources. There are limited resources out there and that is why we count on each other here on the forum.

Here is a portion of what I have found:
In Eric Johansson's book, Pickelhauben, page 86, it says: "These large Kokarden were continued until the advent of the First World War. At that time, due to decreasing stocks of specific unit insignia, and the need for standardization, enlisted and NCO Kurassier personnel used the smaller infantry style Kokarden. Thus it is not unusual to see wartime helmets with small infantry-style roundels. This also applies to the Jaeger zu Pferde regiments."
A photo of a wartime example is shown on page 92 of the same book.
In Colonel Robert H. Rankin's book, Helmets and Headdress of the Imperial German Army 1870 - 1918, on page 20 is also a photograph of a wartime Kurassier.

I have been a collector for a long time and I never trust just one source, seldom even two sources, but The existence of small Kokarden on wartime Kurassier and JzP was further verified, in my humble opinion, on Tony's website.

He has one here: http://www.kaisersbunker.com/feldgrau/helmets/fgh15.htm
And here: http://www.kaisersbunker.com/feldgrau/helmets/fgh16.htm
And he explains it here: http://www.kaisersbunker.com/pt/metalhelme.htm

I do not have an AKO saying that the use of small Kokarden was approved for use by the Kurassier, but I likewise do not have an AKO saying that it was not.
When I put the above information together, my conclusion is that small Kokarden are legitimate.

John
 

911car

Active member
John,
I did not criticize you or said you were wrong, I said I do not agree, which does not necessarily mean the same thing… My point was that the reason why we see so many metal cavalry helmets with small infantry-style cockades nowadays is because these helmets were found without cockades, and no large ones were available for replacement. Did this happen during the war? Possibly, you may be right, and I would be happy to see a period photograph illustrating this fact, but I never did so far. And in my experience, when you are lucky enough to find a 100% original, untouched Kurassier or JzP helmet, like the one below (dated 1915), these always come with the large cockades.
But my main point is something else. Even if you are correct and small cockades were worn occasionally on cavalry helmets, this was an exception and not the rule. For the collector, in my opinion, these helmets must come with the large cockades; this is what contributes to making them unique and giving the distinctive allure. Personally, I think that a KR or JzP helmet looks terrible with small infantry cockades. It is like a M15 Hessian helmet with a cruciform spike base and a Prussian spike, or a M15 Dragoner helmet without a Perlring. You will always find someone to tell you that these have also been worn with Prussian spikes and this is probably true (Hessians also came with round spike bases), but what I like on a Hessian cruciform base is the fluted spike, and the Perlring on a Dr helmet. This also makes all the specific character, interest and value of these helmets. I prefer not to own the model than have a compromise. This is only my opinion though, and I totally respect other points of view.
Finally, regarding the replacement with large cockade reproductions, the KR helmet which sparked this discussion was presented with fake (repro) small cockades. Therefore, replacing small cockade copies with large cockade repros should not make a major dilemma…
Cheers, Bruno

View attachment 2
View attachment 1
 

coert65

Active member
To make this discussion even more difficult, I agree with the both of you.
Personally I like the larger ones, because it was meant to be so. But I also saw the Jäger zu Pferde helmet John is referring to, the one with the smaller kokarden, on Tony's site. I never saw a period picture of a helmet like this with the smaller kokarden, but that does not mean a thing.
I know, that during the war many things were taken for granted, and the rules sometimes did not weigh so much, they used what they had.
Also, war-bond helmets were being slapped together, as mentioned by someone else.
It is a really interesting discussion, I saw the kokarden, at least the reichskokarde on the picture of Warren, to me it looked good. Bruno saw something else, thought it was repro. So I told Warren I have these 2 cavalry-repro's still here, lying about.
So if he felt better he could get them, for a repro price.

As for the genuinity of the ones already on Warren's helmet, I need better pictures, and as for the reasons the smaller kokarden were used after 1915, as seen on Tony's site, which I do not question at all, I have no explanation. Except for the rules being bent late in the war, or just bond-helmets being made up.

Anyway, I see no things wrong with changing repro small ones for repro cavalry ones, and if the ones on Warren's helmet are geniune, he knows he still has them.
Because I only want to sell a pair of cav ones.

Have a nice sunday all,

Greetings, Coert :)
 

SkipperJohn

Active member
Perhaps criticism is too harsh a term, disagreement is better. I have no issue with replacing a repro with another repro and I agree with Bruno 100% that these helmets, both Kurassier and JzP, look much better with the larger Cavalry Kokarden. My real question is simple: were smaller Kokarden used on M15 Kurassier and JzP helmets or not?

This is a subject near and dear to my heart so I really try to obtain all of the information that I can regarding this. Because of the hobby we share I believe that we all must tolerate 'some' modifications to our helmets. I am not very tolerant. I have found that periodically I must accept a new bolt, a hex head nut, a replacement chin strap (especially M15's), and it always bothers me. My wife calls this "being anal".

My search into this matter started with two helmets. The first, "redheaded bastard stepchild" is shown here:

https://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=10776

I revered this helmet for many years and then, all of a sudden, everything about it was wrong. This occurred with the development of the internet, so it was several years later. I did bother me, considerably, none-the-less.

The second helmet was a much, much later purchase that I almost didn't buy because of the small Kokarden. It is shown here:

https://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=10685

I began my research in earnest prior to purchasing this helmet. I was absolutely convinced that small Kokarden were perfectly legit on model 1915 helmets. In researching this I found that it was virtually impossible to find a period photograph of a Prussian Kurassier or Jaeger zu Pferde soldier who was wearing a M15 helmet without an Uberzug. I found the information in Rankin's book (but, of course, that is the book I used back in the 60's), and I found the information in Johansson's book. I examined numerous websites, Tony's being the best, and I enlarged a copy of the famous pyramid photo. On the pyramid photo I found, at least, three Kurassier with small Kokarden, two JzP with small Kokarden, and two Kurassier with the incorrect spike. I was delighted, until I realized that by the time these helmets arrived at the pyramid it was already too late.

I don't believe that we have an argument here, just a discussion. That is what the forum is about, picking each others brains for what we know --- and what we don't.

John :)
 

aicusv

Active member
I've only ever had one of the M'15 KR helmets, I got it from an art studio, where it had been used as a still life model for years. The helmet was complete, except it had only the chinstrap rings that hold the strap to the post remaining, but the cockades were there. They were the small infantry type and always looked right to me. I never thought about the bond helmets having parts switched, but wouldn't that mean that somewhere along someone would have an infantry helmet with large cockades?
Not too long ago I was looking at a photo of an Infantry company standing in formation. Photo was taken around 1901. The interesting thing about it was that some men had a cockade on their helmet and some didn't. One of the men missing it was a senior NCO. ???

Years ago I was able to interview many veterans of the German Army of WWI, some were from mounted units. As the war went on the need for mounted troops was not there and some of these troops were utilized in other roles. Some were sent to guard rear areas, some were dismounted and used as infantry in the trenches, and some were sent to artillery units to act as drivers for the guns. Given this and the stories they told me about the German supply system, it is possible that things like cockades could have replaced in the field with what ever was available.
 
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