Mystery Wappen

Too bad Gew98 or Krag aren't in on this discussion. Gew98 is a guru regarding Gew 88's. Both the 88's & 98's did indeed use the Spitzer (S) round, as did modified M91's. The difference being that the Gew 98 & Gew 88/05 used chargers to load the rounds into their magazines, and the Gew 88/S's used a clip to load rounds into the magazine.

Prior to WWI, both the G 88 & G 98 used the Patronen 88 round. The Spitzer round was officially adopted 25 Mar. 1903. All 88's & 98's that were originally made for the Patronen 88 round were converted to the "S" round and received the S stamp.

R1 said
As for captured rifles, some were converted to 7.92x57mm and some were used in their original chambering.
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What R1 says is ofcoarse correct and many Mosin -Nagant rifles were also issued with muzzle adapters so they could "Fix" German bayonets to them.

Anyhow, getting back to the chaps in the photo, does that one fellow look like he has a perlring spike or not?

Joe Rookery said
Too many members vote with silence. If they are not certain they say nothing so I love to have a discussion!
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Any little bit of information that we all put together regardles how trivial it may seem at the time, can open a new door to information that we might never be able put together otherwise.
 
Basically when getting into such details regarding the gew98 and gew88 - such minutia like how many and when , Walter's book has to be taken with a bit of salt.
The gew88 use in german service during the great war was large - more so on the eastern front then the western front .
Reserve units that were low priority and or not up to full strength that had been issued modern equipment before the war were stripped of such niceties as gew98's so that modern arms/equipment could be influxed into line regiments in need and expanded line regiemtns in same need. As well when the need was very dire even gew88's were taken from reserve and recruit depots and sent to the west for caliber compliance and familiarity .The majority of gew88's in german service were those modified to handle the S patrone and still retained use of the mannlicher clip. Though the germans did start a program prewar in 1905 to modify gew88's on hand to the mauser charger system , not terribly "enough" were completed before august 1914. The vast majority of the 88/05 conversions of the gew88 rifles were supplied to Turkey during the war. For some reason possibly due to the inability to supply turks with mannlicher clips in quantity simply farmed off the charger modified gew88's to them and pretty much kept the mannlicher clip gew88's in german service.
Some foreign captured rifles like the Mosin 91 and the belgian 89 were rechambered for the german 8mm rimless cartridge but very few Mosins got such work. In fact more mosins were rechambered by austria for their 8x50 service cartridge than the germans ever bothered to in their 7,92 service cartridge. And the austrian rechambered mosins are very scarce indeed. It is more common to encounter Belgian 89's rechambered and reissued by the germans than any other foriegn reissued rifles.
The Russian 7,62x54R rifles were captured in large enough quantities along with their Maxim 1910 guns that the germans and austrians simply reissued these rifles in their original calibers and made ammunition for them. There are many pictures exhistant of landwehr type german troops in belgium and France with these M91 mosin rifles and bayonets , for which the germans and austrians made scabbard and frogs for these with the austrians going a bit further and even manufacturing their own copy of the russian cruciform socket bayonet.
The germans did initially design the gew98 for the 88 patrone , but updated this in 1903 with the S patrone. ALL gew98's made in 1904 and after were for the S patrone with updated sight calibrations , gas deflecting firing pin flange , larger gas ports in bolt body , improved and strengthened bayonet lug.
Not a single issue and military accepted pre 1904 gew98 I am aware of escaped the S patrone upgrade , but a few gew88's in german service did ( I am not talking about the mismatch barn kept south american gew88's ).Typical prussian throughness.
The germans did continue production of the 88 patrone through the end of the war , but not specifically for rifles. The heavier and more stable at longer ranges 88 patrone bullet was issued belted for alot of MG servcie. Their is alot of period photographic evidence even through 1918 of belted 88 patrone with 08's and 08/15's.
And yes - the magazine port sheet metal covers only came about after intial experiances in trench warfare - and only initially for the 88/05 mauser charger variants. Shortly thereafter a sheet metal plate ( identical to the common patterns ) appeared with a spring loaded disc to eject the mannlicher clip with manual depression of the clip release button in the triggerguard. While not rare it is not very common , but did see wide use. Much like the trench magazine for the gew98 - a mass produced item in large quantities , but not well liked by the troops and discarded in large quantities by them , hence their scarcity today.
 
George I looked but could not determine the type of spike base. If I understand this correctly now, it could have been well before 1917. My immediate guess is 1914 -- 1915.
 
Hey George,
I knew better than to say that Gew 88s were not used in the front line, but the 1917 date still fits for me, the Stahlhelm was not used as much in the east, as they were for protection from artillery, and I do not think the Russians used as much shrapnel as the French, but the parade straps on the Tornisters still puzzel me, as they should be blackened.
Gus
 
Gus

Those parade straps had me puzzled also. And so does that plate.

I had thought I would have come to my point by now, but have misplaced the cable for my digital camera & am unable to upload some pics I took regarding this subject.

When I first became a member of this forum, 2004 pre-hacker days, I asked about a korpus I wanted to identify for the purpose of restoring it. Seems that thread is gone along with subsequent L.G. related threads. Oh well. From the thread I learned that L.G. helmets for foot troopers sported a perlring OR's spike (reason I asked if anyone can tell if these guys had perlrings), flat chin scales, first a Grenadier wappen, then after 1895(?) a Garde Star was worn with the Grenadier wappen in the fashion of a Garde Grenadier. My korpus has the shadow of the same wappen that these guys have, same outline as the Grenadier Regt. 9 pre-1913 wappen, so I am convinced that this is a picture of Land Gendarmerie trupper's in Russia. The tunics are more Landsturm then the tunic in Tony's pic that was posted in an old L.G. thread, but this IS a war time pic. They are in the field on the Eastern Front IN Russia with white tornister straps, no helmet covers, wearing chin scales. Who else could they be? :dontknow: :-k

There is one more L.G. related thing to add, recently there is a LG helmet on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150092905900

Here is the seller's description:
The helmet has die-struck or "stamped into the leather" indentation marks:"L G 08", found inside the helmet shell, located in the forehead area of the helmet, where the eagle attaches to the front of the helmet.
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Does this stand for LG 1908 or is it LG 08 for a unit designation, like the collar dogs would? My helmet is die stamped 1890 over L.G.
 
George,

Using Radecke’s book I looked at the LG issue from the police side. While he gives a good lay down, including some helmet information, there are some gaps in what we need to know. One thing kind of surprised me which fits into this discussion.

As you know there were two types of LG. (Landesgendarme or Landgendarme depending on the source.) There were foot gendarme and mounted gendarme. Both of these worked in the Prussian provinces. They were a provincial police in the Kingdom of Prussia. On page 22 of the book there is a picture of the foot gendarme helmet. It is a 1895 model with chin scales. It has one of those eagles with the curved sword hilt and the guard star. The same Wappen was shown on page 34. In his text on page 35 the author says that the helmet is the same as the guard Regiment zu Fuß numbers one through four. On page 35 he also explains that the mounted gendarme use the same helmet as guard dragoon Regiment number one. On page 36 he shows an officer Wappen with a bowtie sword hilt and a chicken on a stick and attributes it to the mounted gendarme.

While these things above do not answer much there is a picture on page 158 which shows three mounted gendarme with Ringkragen who are operating as Feldgendarme for the IX reserve Corps in Belgium September 1914. With the army outside of Prussia!

There is nothing in the book that would indicate any of these police forces wore the Wappen of the ninth Grenadier's. -- -- more fog.
 
If we keep picking away at this we will eventually find an answer. 2 years ago, collectively there were not a whole lot of answers to go around. Joe, great new information. It was very quiet around here while you all were at S.O.S.

By the way, does the LG 08 stand for LG 1908 or is it LG 08 for a unit designation?
 
By the way, does the LG 08 stand for LG 1908 or is it LG 08 for a unit designation?
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George,
I do not pretend to know the truth in this matter, however based on the marks that I have seen I believe the 08 represents a unit designation. I have seen LG marks that are both impressed as well is done in black ink. They all seem to be in the belle of the helmet. The Reichs police or RG seem to put their marks on the back visor. The dates are done in two lines like this:
LG1.jpg

I have several examples of of numbers similar to the 08 that are done on one line like this:
LG%2011.jpg

some show a decimal point after the letters, some do not.

The RG also put their marks on a single line:

rg400.jpg


So my question is that it is a unit designation. Tomorrow we will find some new marks which will blow this theory away.
 
Another piece to the puzzle: ebay # 150095162546

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150095162546&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

The seller added the pic of the wappen off the front of the helmet for me and he says there is no stamps inside the helmet. If you look on the interior of the helmet, it appears something was scratched out. There are no wappen grommets, indicative of an L.G. helmet, although they could have been removed. Hard to tell from the pic. There are no regimental stamps inside or on the rear visor either, so it might seem to me that this should be L.G.

Anybody more learned than me have any ideas?
 
Joe : My LG helmet's markings are exactly the same as your first picture. Only the date is different: L.G. 1890. This one is a beautiful heavy old beast with high dome and thick flat bolt on chin scales. The wappen holes are not grommetted. There is alo a faint square ink stamp on the rear visor which can not be deciphered. The wappen fits well but there are signs that washers may have been worn inside (marks on the leather). I am surprised that there have not been any comments on the spike ventilation system shown on the one being sold at present on ebay (inside shot) Brian
 
Thanks to a firm nudge by Glenn -- I think I finally have my arms around the Landsturm brigades [well most of them]. This picture is of Landsturm Battalion Stargard. Well some Korporalschaft from that battalion. The brigade number five matches and indeed it has the exact same location for the garrison of the ninth Grenadier's. They are both in the third division. For some reason left over helmet plates were given to the Landsturm. All of this makes sense and has nothing to do with LG. That's my two cents worth but this has been a tremendous amount of fun -- thanks!
 
Wow Joe !

Now some important pieces are falling in place. So the date would easily be 1917, as it is past the Post-1915 Landsturm issue of pickelhauben.

Now to find why they wear white parade straps, the lack of uberzugen & brass chin scales? (Good luck, right?!)
 
George,

I don't think there are any hard rules associated with the Landsturm. Based on the collar dogs alone, the picture would have to be before spring 1915. Hopefully I will write more Landsturm stuff later this afternoon. And I think I now have all the brigade information I need and that leaves me with a great deal of questions -- no easy boxes.
 
The straps to the Torrnister mat be just issued from a unit that had used as parade straps . The tornister I have with White straps have been blackened then wjiteened . I always wondered why .But since this piece of kit was not a front line use .
I will try to get pics od the straps. and tornister.
mark
 
Well, I think the white Tornister braces are just another example of obsolete equipment being brought out of storage or bought back from surplus dealers to be used again. No mystery with this type of troop. By definition, they were probably guarding some captured city hall or the lines of communication/supply.

Chip
 
Hi,
very interesting discussion on both Landsturm & the use of the GEW 88, i am more interested in the 88 discussion, as i have just aquirred a Steyr 1894 G88, which has its original 8mm calibre (one of the few to retain its originality?), having neither been altered to take the 'S' or the later '14' modification, it is regt marked on front band to 1st Foot Guards, 10th company 260 weapon, it has no other markings, so it has not been used by Turkey, i assume this weapon was kept in the barracks back in Berlin. Any thoughts would be welcolmed. By the way this weapon has been deactivated, the only way here in the U.K you can own such a weapon, we have draconian gun laws.
regards, Steve Lee.
 
Steve

Is your Gew 88 matching? Have you removed the barrel jacket to inspect the barrel & markings? Where are the regimentals stamped? Nosecap, lower band, or left action bridge?

An 1894 in original form? No "S" stamp, what kind of firing pin nut is on the bolt? Is it round?

Gew 88 was an important rifle for Germany, it being the first German military rifle developed for use with metallic "smokeless" cartridges, replacing the Gewehr 71/84. It was first introduced to the Garde Korps regiments in 1889/1890, and remained in service with the Garde Korps until the Mauser Gew 98 was introduced to the G.K. in 1900. The Gew 88's that were replaced by Regular Armee Regiments went into depots and were stored away for the Reserves. Around 1906 about 350,000 were modified to use Gew 98 stripper clips, and redesignated Gew 88/05. The rest of the Gew 88 rifles that were "S" modified or in their original form were stored away for use of the Landwehr or war time Landsturm troops.

I'd say that the chances are very good that your rifle would have been used by the Landsturm.

Websites that are dedicated to Gew 88 rifles are:

Gew88.com

http://www.gew88.com/gew_88_forum/

Commission Rifle

http://groups.msn.com/CommissionRifle/commissionrifle.msnw

A good book to look up for information on Gew 88 rifles would be Paul Scarlata's "A Collector's Guide to the German Gew. 88 "Commission" Rifle".
 
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