Photographer props???

joerookery

joerookery

Well-known member
First, let's wish all of you a happy Thanksgiving. I know it is not a holiday and every country but in ours we sit around, eat and get fat -- lots of napping and TV watching.

Next I offer this picture. A long time ago Tony said something about a private with an officer portepee. Since then I started looking. There are a lot of these. What is everyone's opinion? Here is an example:

portapee.jpg

portapee_1.jpg


The way I read this uniform this guy is a lower ranking artillery dude -- -- look at that portepee. Look at the helmet. Does this not have a thin visor trim indicating that it was not issue? Look at the hair Bush. Does this not look wavy like Buffalo hair? Could these items be photographer props? My head hurts. :eek:
 
Joe,

I suppose that they could be props, but more likely that is a private purchase knot. You will notice that it is made from cloth and not metalic wire. I beleive that these "ball" type knots were preferred by mounted troups and this is just a private purchase enlisted example.

Chip
 
Joe: I beieve Chip is exacty correct. Here is an example of a similar private purchase knot on an artillery sword.

Reservist1
 
Everything about this fellow seems to be private purchase. You can see the Perlring and other features. Personally, I do not believe at all the hypothesis of "photographer props". I think its a convenient way for collectors to rationalize what they cannot explain in photographic evidence. Think about it; would a soldier walk through the streets of a German city to a photographer's shop without his hat or helmet? Or with his sword belt on with no sword attached? It would never happen.

And at the price of a Pickelhaube, what photographer would have a variety of sizes to fit anyone, for potentially a dozen units station in the area? And at the shop, what soldier would put the wrong Pickelhaube on for a photo? That is like me getting my photo taken, and putting a maroon Airborne beret on. I would not do it. A soldier wears what reflects his unit.
 
I think its a convenient way for collectors to rationalize what they cannot explain in photographic evidence.
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I certainly cannot explain or rationalize the differences here. The Bekleidungsordnung allows soldiers to buy private purchase items and wear them off-duty with the caveat that they must meet regulation patterns. I can rationalize that it is all private purchase but the guy seems to be wearing a Buffalo hair bush. The sword explanation put out was cool and I cannot really see the type of pearl ring. The Bush seems confusing -- -- but it could be horse hair -- -- either way this guy laid out a lot of money for private purchase stuff. I'm not ready to pronounce the photographer prop idea dead but you do bring up some valid criticism of it. Helmet certainly were not "one-size-fits-all".
 
"Think about it; would a soldier walk through the streets of a German city to a photographer's shop without his hat or helmet? Or with his sword belt on with no sword attached? It would never happen." writes Tony.

Which uniform was the Garde-du-Corps allowed to wear when he would leave the barracks for a drink or for a photograph? When he was out of duty, I think he just had the right to wear his "Ausgehuniform", wasn't he??? This could explain some of the photographer props (some other not...)
Does anyone of you know more about it?

Regards
Gilles
 
deadhorse.gif

I think its a convenient way for collectors to rationalize what they cannot explain in photographic evidence.
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I still have no concept of how to explain this. Three more CDVs arrived today:


pearlring.jpg

pearlring2.jpg

pearlring3.jpg


The middle guy is mounted and does indeed have in nonmetallic round ball portepee -- but why the pearl rings???
 
We discussed this before if I recall? The so-called "officer" egg & dart Perlring seemed to have been a favorite choice on private Purchase helmets. I have dozens of photos here like the ones you show Joe, all ORs with "officer" egg & dart Perlring. The eagle Wappen on all your photos, appears to be the "Extra" pattern as my example below. Does anyone else have one of these? They are stunning!

hp20c.jpg
 
The so-called "officer" egg & dart Perlring seemed to have been a favorite choice on private Purchase helmets.
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I know we have talked about this before and beat this horse to death, however, something still does not fit right. The Wappen on your example is indeed stunning. The crown is pierced. So in some instances it seems as that there is little or no control over how much a private purchase helmet was upgraded. I remember the Bekleidungsordnung limiting the private purchase items to existing regulations. I understand one year volunteers. But lower ranking enlisted soldiers with the private purchase helmet doing whatever they could afford?!?! There is a burr under my saddle but I just cannot explain it either. Maybe it is just my search for boxes?
 
joerookery said:
// But lower ranking enlisted soldiers with the private purchase helmet doing whatever they could afford//
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Absolutely! This is where most "authors" in text books get it wrong. The buying of these funky Eigentumshelme was not just limited to One Year Volunteers.

Try this: take all the photos you have of soldiers wearing what appear to be Eigentumshelme and count how many have One Year Volunteer piping on their shoulder straps. You will find it is very few. Almost all of them are no-rank Privates. Not One Year Volunteers. My understanding is that a private-purchase Waffenrock, Schirmmütze and a Pickelhaube for walking out was a very common traditional gift from a middle-class family for their young soldier.

Evidence of this is in the fact that issued Waffenrock are very rare. Almost all Waffenrocks found today are private purchase. And a one-year volunteer example is quite difficult to find. I only have three. So how do you explain the rest of these no-rank private purchase Waffenrocks?
 
Try this: take all the photos you have of soldiers wearing what appear to be Eigentumshelme and count how many have One Year Volunteer piping on their shoulder straps. You will find it is very few. Almost all of them are no-rank Privates. Not One Year Volunteers.
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Without even trying I know you're absolutely correct in regard to Berlin and guard units. Outside of Berlin I will have to check. But yours is a fascinating idea -- outside of "conventional wisdom" -- is there no difference in what is allowed between an officer private purchase and someone else's private purchase? Was it okay to do anything except let's say cockards? I have to leave this hanging for a little bit but I intend to look at the Bekleidungsordnung in some detail to see if there is anything -- anything that specifically is allowed or denied. Interesting,
 
Joe, I believe some states were more strict than others. For example, as mentioned in the recent Bayern helmet thread on James' new Haube, when you find an Eigetumsstück Mannschaften Pickelhaube from any state except Bayern, it will inevitably have "officer" pattern chinscales held on with split brad rosettes. It is very unusual to find one with M91 clip-on chinscales. With Bayern, however, M91 clip-on chinscales on an Eigetumsstück is the norm. So Bayern must have made it clear that men in the Foot Troops could not have a square visor and cruciform spike base w/ fluted spike, and that they could not have chinscales held on with split brad rosettes. I'm sure an example or photo will pop up immediately with split brad rosettes now that I have said that, but generally, they seem to follow those rules. But you are right, with the Preußen Garde, it seems like every photo has these guys wearing Eigetumsstück helmets, and a great many have the knock-out "extra" pattern eagle Wappen. Where are they all now? Could it be explained partially with the tragic fate of Berlin, Spandau, Postdam, and Charlottenburg?
 
Joe and Tony:

As a fly in the ointment, here is a cabinet photo of a OR guardsman wearing obviously a private purchase helm (w/ what appears to be a buffalo hair plume), tailored waffenrock, overcoat, white belt, gloves....and feldgrau wool trousers!



Although I'm sure that some enlisted men could purchase upgraded portions of their uniform, I think that most of these cabinet photos utilize props. If a photographer is located a garrison town, it would be reasonable to have several sizes of uniform parts and pieces for photographing presumably the newest members of the regiment. Besides, most seem to cover portions of the waffenrock with an overcoat draped on the shoulders, making a perfect fit not that important. Also, if I was a photagrapher, I would probably only have one or two upgraded "prop" helmets, since the wearer only has to have it on his head once so a perfect fit is not an issue. Just a thought.

Dave
 
Mosher, you were born to be a fly in the ointment (hug)! I have read these comments with interest. I wonder that the explanation for these private purchase helmets on no rank privates in the Gardes units does not reflect the class of people that would be admitted or would want to join. I can not think of anything more prestigeous for a middle class German family with money than to have a son in one of the Garde units. In addition, perhaps, the Gardes themselves wanted a higher class or quality of recruit from the "better" families. I realise that this goes against the idea that the High Command preferred soldiers from the agricultural classes who had less education, were used to hard labour and knew their place in the social higherarchy.
Obviously, the helmets in the fotos above indicate that someone had the extra money and also wanted to spend that money on a helmet and uniform which were obviously of a better quality than those regularly issued to ordinary recruits. Lets not forget, that any one who cared, or was in the military, would instantly recognize the better quality of these things. To me, these uniforms and helmets state that....I am not an officer but I do have the money to wear officer quality private purchase items. I can in fact emulate an officer, I am a "better" class person. Remember, the old phrase that "clothes make the man". We still find this today, those who have the bucks usually wear the higher priced clothing which simply looks better and is of a better quality than what Walmart sells. No offence intended to Walmart shoppers! Just a thought....Brian
 
My attempt to swat that fly in the ointment, is that to use these examples of the Berlin Garde photos, I just cannot see how a photographer could possibly have, or could afford to have, a "prop" Pickelhaube or two, for all the Garde Infantry Regts, each of the Garde Grenadier Regts, Garde Jäger & Schützen, Garde Kürassier and GdC Regts, Garde Dragoner Regts, Garde Husaren Regt, Garde Ulanen Regts, Jäger zu Pferde Regt , Garde Feldarillerie Regts, Garde Fußartillerie Regt, Garde Pionier Battalion, Eisenbahn Regts, Garde Train Battalion?

And then on top of that have a "prop" overcoat for every rank of all these units which would be about 60 overcoats? :scratch:
 
You're right of course, Tony. I'm sure no garrison town photographer would have provided "upgrade" props for the new members wanting to be photographed, especially a nice private purchase helmet, trichter and plume.

Joe;
Are white gloves issued to enlisted personnel?
 
dave mosher said:
You're right of course, Tony.
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Well, we'll never know. You could be right Dave and I could be dead wrong. I didn't mean to come across as jerk. I am always a sceptic as you know, it's a personality fault of mine.........
 
I think that the photographic prop idea is quite dead here guys. I think the remaining questions lie in the area of...just how much "officer"a private purchase helme was allowed to be on the head of a private. To me, that is where the surprise element comes out ie. an officer pearlring on a helme worn by an OR. I can accept the private purchase Garde stern or an officer style liner but the pearl ring?? Perhaps real officer status on the helme is reflected in the presence of star suds and officer kokarden? Brian
 
OK. I know I am beating a dead horse. Having said that, here is a very interesting cabinet photo I saw on e-blechhh....



Enlisted guardsman (most likely artillery) wearing a M-1915 bluse...along with the pre-war dress belt, sword w/officer knot, and of course the private purchase helmet and plume.

I am trying to look at this issue from a different angle. Try dividing these photos into two groups; "those with" and "those without".

"Those with" are best described as either those with money and/or family or those with an interest in furthering their military careers and have been there for a while. It would make sense to purchase andwear private purchase clothing items and headgear for these chaps. They also seem to be photographed a lot in nicely posed close-up shots from the waist up.

Now, think about the "those without" crowd. They are the masses that must fulfill their military obligations and other than their marriage day photo, these cabinet photos are probably the only studio portrait these
lads will ever have (certainly in uniform). Does it make sense for a lowly drafted private to purchase items privately for this one photo op. Wouldn't it make sense for a photographer to have some "upgrade" props, especially helmets, for these guys. Keep in mind, these typical cabinet photos are fairly standard (small) in size and how basic and typical the soldier is posed. With as many new recruits coming into a particular regiment, as a photo mill business, it was probably fairly steady. Also keep in mind, these photos are being sent back to Mom, Dad, or wife and nobody else would see them, so a few upgrade embellishments doesn't hurt anyone. Just some thoughts...

Dave
 
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