Prussian Jager Officer's Shako to Parade

[C. Roelens]

I posted this shako on the WAF Imperial German Headgear sub-forum a while back with some good information. However, I recently received this statement indicating it may have been produced post 1920's. Manufacturer is C. POSE Berlin. I would appreciate the expert opinions of members here if this can be confirmed or refuted. Thank you, Chuck

 

[C. Roelens]

This shako was part of the Bill Stevens collection and was published in Eric Johanssons book (1982).

"After some difficult research, the C. Pose company stamp on the shako appears to be from after the 1920s because before that they weren't located in the "Berlin 034" district but in the "Berlin SO" district. The shako was therefore made after the First World War".

 

[C. Roelens]

My apologies, I didn't see the separate shako discussion forum. Is it possible to move this thread to the correct forum?

Thank you,
Chuck

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

Moved it.

That is a beautiful Tschako. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Who knows why that stamp is there (?), but that is a very nice correct Officers Tschako.

 

[J.LeBrasseur]

Have to agree, Tony is right on the mark, I like it and would have no problem with that one in my collection!

James

 

[CLOVIS 57]

For me, the manufacturer's stamp, the side vent, and the grain of the leather visible on the inside lead me to believe that this is a traditional post-war shako, used for veterans' ceremonies. Officer's spiked helmets, colbacks, and other traditional military headgear were reproduced between 1920 and 1930 almost identically for veterans and honor guards. I prefer this Shako, infra, without a Schupo-type vent.


Similarly, the Guard's mitres have been remade by the same manufacturers as before the war. They look similar, but you have to look closely at certain details. The same goes for the colbacks.

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Another concern is that the height of the eagle would need to be measured...

The bottom of the eagle's tail should reach the middle of the bourdalou, but should not extend beyond the top of the black cloth covering. I believe this is an infantry officer's eagle for a pointed helmet.

 

[ottodog8]

According to Larcade, an A.K.O. of 16 August 1888 provided that Officer and Enlisted shakos given a vent on each side.

 

[timp_be]

Hello.

According to the information I've been able to find, the Otto POSE company was located at Schlesische Straße 18 (Berlin SO 36) during World War I. It moved in the mid-1930s to Boxhagener Straße 16 (Berlin SO 34).

Since the stamp indicates SO 34, this suggests a 1930s production date, which seems to be confirmed by the "Pose Leder" marking, also dating from the 1930s.

Best regards,

timp_be

 

[CLOVIS 57]

According to Larcade, an A.K.O. of 16 August 1888 provided that Officer and Enlisted shakos given a vent on each side.

Thank you, J-L Larcade made a few mistakes in his books. I don't doubt his assertion, but clearly, this rule wasn't always followed, as we see quite a few unquestionable Shako helmets that don't have this feature. Without a vent, there's no doubt, but when there is this small vent with a fine mesh, one must be wary because police officers' Shako helmets have the "Weimar" system at their disposal.

 

[C. Roelens]

Message from Gerd on WAF:

Hi Chuck,

as said, nothing to be worried about .


In "my little collectors world" this one is 100% good and period. In case of the O.34 postcode marking, it was maybe for a retired officer end of WW1 start Weimar. There are hundreds of fotos showing events with the old guard walking around in parade dress up.


For the records:

The official public domain of Berlin shows a clear line up

1918

C. Pose, Schlesier Str. 18, SO 33 Berlin

1919

C. Pose, Boxhagener Str. 16a, O34 Berlin

and so on.

So the Pose firm changed location in 1918

You have to know, that such public domains were written books here in Germany (sometimes thick ones ) and they were written up to one year before (for example dated 1918 written in 1917).The earliest time of an O.34 ink marking could be 1918.

I would be more worried, if there were later Police markings in the helmet dome

 

[C. Roelens]

naxos

Agree with the others, excellent example!

Chuck, I'm sure the name can be read and confirmed with better photos - there is too much glare, shade and somewhat too unfocused to read the name correctly .

For fun, I tried to decipher the name using the above photo's - but I could be totally off.

H. von Dülong or Hp v. Dülong - 1914 Leutnant - 1918 Hauptmann

 

[C. Roelens]

naxos

 

[C. Roelens]

Outstanding information from all... Thank You!

Chuck

 

[C. Roelens]

More info from Gerd W.

Response to timp_be:

You are wrong with your suggestion or mention about the adress and some other facts.

...it would be very easy if you just read my entire post #21

or just search in the Berliner Adress books.......


Berliner Adreßbuch (Public Domain) - Digitale Landesbibliothek Berlin

Btw.

O.34 is on the stamp not SO 34!

The stamp tells us C. Pose AG like Aktien Gesellschaft ........ in 1930 Pose changes to GmbH (Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung)

Here the 1918 and 1919 Berlin Public domain

1918




1919

and as said before, the stamp might be added by Pose warehouse 1921/22 (because of the AG) to the helmet, but it is still rock solid.

 

[C. Roelens]

A little more...

Some more infos about Firma Pose AG in the 20s (so the stamp in the helmet dome could have a time range from 1922 up to 1931). We will never know the reason for the addition of this stamp.e AG in t


C Pose AG

Gegründet am 19.6.1921. Fortführung der ehemals von der Firma C. Pose in Berlin, Boxhagener Str. 16, betriebenen Fabriken für Leder- und Stoffverarbeitung sowie der Vertrieb von Leder- und Textilwaren. Die Gesellschaft fabrizierte besonders Helme und Tschakos, Leder- und Sattlerwaren, Lederkonfektion, Beamtenuniformen, Ledermützen, Futterale für optische Geräte, Geschirre, Sättel, Gamaschen, Rucksäcke, Motorradtaschen und Sportgürtel. Die Firma lautete bis 16.2.1922: C. Pose Export AG, danach: C. Pose AG. Das Stammhaus wurde 1847 gegründet. Die Gesellschaft hat am 17.11.1931 ihre Zahlungen eingestellt.

he 20s (so the stamp in the helmet dome could have a time range from 1922 up to 1931). We w

 

[Lars13]

Die Firma lautete bis 16.2.1922: C. Pose Export AG, danach: C. Pose AG

"The company was called until 16.2.1922: C. Pose Export AG, afterwards: C. Pose AG"
For me the easiest and most logical explanation why a helmet would have a 1922 (or later) manufacturer's mark is because it was made 1922 (or later).
Regards,
Lars

 

[John Josef]

"The company was called until 16.2.1922: C. Pose Export AG, afterwards: C. Pose AG"
For me the easiest and most logical explanation why a helmet would have a 1922 (or later) manufacturer's mark is because it was made 1922 (or later).
Regards,
Lars

I'm no expert on Shakos but I have to agree the stamps only logical and of course the easiest explanation for being there would be that it was placed there at the time of manufacture.

As collectors one of the first things, we do when inspecting a helmet for possible purchase or authentication is to look for a manufactures stamp, regimentals stamp, or depot stamps. etc.

Using that same process and since everyone agrees that specific stamp was only used from 1922 at least the body has to date from that time.

A very Nice-looking helmet and I'm sure there are many collectors who would love to own it regardless of when it was put together.

 

[CLOVIS 57]

A little more...

Some more infos about Firma Pose AG in the 20s (so the stamp in the helmet dome could have a time range from 1922 up to 1931). We will never know the reason for the addition of this stamp.
he 20s (so the stamp in the helmet dome could have a time range from 1922 up to 1931). We w

There's no question about it. It's the manufacturer's stamp, in the form indicated by the archives for that period. For me, it may be a beautiful ceremonial shako, for a veteran, but it's not a shako worn during the war by a J.B. officer.
In France, the price will not be the same if there is any doubt about it being post-WW1. In France, a “Kammer” headdress is worth the most, an Eigentum is worth less, and traditional post-war helmets are worth even less. War helmets are much more sought after than peacetime helmets such as the M71 spiked helmet, which never saw combat.
But you still need to know how to analyze all these differences.

Below, von Hindenburg's helmet from 1933 is a "fantasy" helmet...in keeping with tradition. It has nothing to do with a General's or Field Marshal's helmet from WWI !




Apart from the Hindenburg signature, this helmet is currently only worth the price of an infantry officer's helmet ! And in hand, it too could be identified as having been made in the 1920s.

 

[argonne]

H. von Dülong or Hp v. Dülong - 1914 Leutnant - 1918 Hauptmann

Leutnant Harry von Dülong...

Verlustlisten 1. Weltkrieg, page 1319: Dülong, v. Harry ()

des.genealogy.net

Philippe