Prussian Kurassier Model 1867

Steve Nick

Member
This is another helmet I’ve had for decades and never really paid a lot of attention to it. I knew it had some issues and needed some TLC to make it as “correct” as it could be but until my retirement, I never spent the time.

I’d like to solicit your more informed opinions as to what this helmet needs.

I got it in a swap with a militaria book dealer who wanted a couple of Imperial era cigarette card books. “Orden” being one of them. All that to say’ I don’t have a lot invested in this so if it requires some investment to make it right then so be it.

Here’s what I know about it.

I believe it to be a Model 1867 enlisted ranks due to the presence of the border strip between front and rear visors. It has no maker or issue markings anywhere.

The Wappen appears to be the correct enlisted plate due to no voiding between the eagles’ legs and body but the attachment is via two round headed studs with prongs?

There is a small circular hole through the shell to the right of one of these studs.

There is an additional small vertical hole that appears to have been punched through the front of the shell under the wappen. Related to liner attachment?

I was told at the time I got it that it had Russian chin scales. I can’t see the difference.

The bolts securing the chin scales I think are repros? I suspect the rosettes are not correct.

The spike tip appears to be tombak. It should be nickel/steel.

The inside of the front visor is green and there are remnants of black paint on the rear neck guard.

Single Prussian kokarde on right side is correct as of 1867.
 

Attachments

  • DSC_1300 Re-sized.jpg
    DSC_1300 Re-sized.jpg
    424.7 KB · Views: 2,663
  • DSC_1297 Re-sized.jpg
    DSC_1297 Re-sized.jpg
    284.4 KB · Views: 2,663
  • DSC_1295 Re-sized.jpg
    DSC_1295 Re-sized.jpg
    332.3 KB · Views: 2,663
  • DSC_1294 Re-sized.jpg
    DSC_1294 Re-sized.jpg
    309.2 KB · Views: 2,662
  • DSC_1292 Re-sized.jpg
    DSC_1292 Re-sized.jpg
    371.5 KB · Views: 2,662

Steve Nick

Member
Additional detail pics follow:
 

Attachments

  • DSC_1304 Re-sized.jpg
    DSC_1304 Re-sized.jpg
    358.8 KB · Views: 2,659
  • DSC_1301 Re-sized.jpg
    DSC_1301 Re-sized.jpg
    401.8 KB · Views: 2,659
  • DSC_1308 Re-sized.jpg
    DSC_1308 Re-sized.jpg
    355.5 KB · Views: 2,659
  • DSC_1306 Re-sized.jpg
    DSC_1306 Re-sized.jpg
    201.5 KB · Views: 2,659

Tony without Kaiser

Departed
Staff member
Hi Steve,

Typically Kürassier issued Wappen have vertical tail feathers, right from 1842 to 1914. In my opinion, your Metalhelme has a Post 1871 Foot Troops eagle with the VVV tail feathers, but that does not mean its not original to the helmet. Bolts indicate pre 1895, but I think Heavy Cavalry did not adopt the M95 loops as much.

Image Link: http://www.kaisersbunker.com/wappens/Kurassier_M1895.jpg

Kurassier_M1895.jpg
 

SkipperJohn

Active member
Steve,
This may be the spike you need:

https://www.treasure-hunt.nl/product/2049052/punt-voor-cuirassier-helm-manschappen

John :)
 

Steve Nick

Member
John:

Holy cow! You're right I think that's it. Thanks for the lead, much appreciated.

Anybody in need of a tombak version?
 

SkipperJohn

Active member
Steve Nick said:
John:

Holy cow! You're right I think that's it. Thanks for the lead, much appreciated.

Anybody in need of a tombak version?

No problem.
I am interested in why someone would think that your chinscales are "Russian"?
Remember that the chinscales on Kurassier helmets were much wider than most, measuring 36mm at their widest point.

The vertical slot on the front of the helmet held a brad with bent pins or an inverted "T" with bent pins to hold the front of the liner in place.

John :)
 

Steve Nick

Member
John:

Re. the "Russian" chin scales.

I've compared them to lots of photos of real cavalry helmets and I couldn't understand what he meant by that. I thinks it's one of the reasons why I got it so cheap. He was a book guy and knew next to nothing about German helmets. I think someone told him that and he just believed it and therefore figured it was a put together helmet with no liner so didn't value it highly.

I figured that vertical slot had to be associated with the liner, same with the residual solder on the inside rear which must have had prongs or such.

Given no marks on it I'm guessing OYV or NCO Private Purchase?

I've sent an email off to the Dutch supplier of the proper spike with the spike dimensions. Hope to hear back soon.

Thanks again for your interest.
 

Steve Nick

Member
Tony without Kaiser said:
Hi Steve,

Typically Kürassier issued Wappen have vertical tail feathers, right from 1842 to 1914. In my opinion, your Metalhelme has a Post 1871 Foot Troops eagle with the VVV tail feathers, but that does not mean its not original to the helmet. Bolts indicate pre 1895, but I think Heavy Cavalry did not adopt the M95 loops as much.

Kurassier_M1895.jpg

Tony:

Thanks for your input.

Was there meant to be an image attached to your post?

I’ve scoured your site for Kurassier, Foot artillery plates as a reference but didn’t find an example of the plate on my helmet.

I’ve been under the impression (I may be wrong on this) that Prussian Wappen with interleaved feathers just above the tail feathers are cavalry plates. My helmet’s wappen doesn’t have those type of feathers but it does have the un-voided space between the body and the legs which I’ve always held to be indicative of Kürassier plates.

I must be wrong on at least one of these beliefs as this wappen doesn’t comply with my understanding as it currently exists.

While we’re on the topic is it true that officer (voided crown) plates do have a voided space between the body and the legs?

I’d appreciate your educating me on this topic.
 

Tony without Kaiser

Departed
Staff member
John do you not see the image I attached? I can see it. Odd?

The feather are the key as you have noted. They should be overlapped, and not vertical for Cavalry, and the tail feathers remained vertical.

So..For issued:

1842 to 1867 the tail feathers were vertical.
1871 the tail feathers had an added VVV on top. Kürassier did not adopt this feature.
1891 for the first time the area between the legs and chest was voided. Once again, Kürassier did not adopt this.

As for officers, they used a proper Kürassier officer Wappen with vertical tail feathers, but occasionally you will encounter one with a standard Foot-Troops Wappen.

So a standard Kürassier looks like this with overlapped chest feathers, vertical tail feathers, and no void between the legs and chest. This did not change until 1915, although there are a very few examples out there of grey M15 Kürassier Wappen.

Image link: http://www.kaisersbunker.com/dunkelblau/helmets/dbh46a.jpg

dbh46a.jpg


M1871 had the VVV added above the tail feathers. Still the legs are not voided.

Image Link: http://www.kaisersbunker.com/dunkelblau/helmets/dbh17a.jpg

dbh17a.jpg


1891 the legs became voided.

Image Link: http://www.kaisersbunker.com/dunkelblau/helmets/dbh76a.jpg

dbh76a.jpg


Officer's Kürassier Wappen

Image Link: http://www.kaisersbunker.com/dunkelblau/helmets/dbh95a.jpg

dbh95a.jpg
 

Steve Nick

Member
Tony:

Thanks for the reply.

Maybe it's my set-up but I still can't see the images you posted.

The explanation does help.

Steve
 

Tony without Kaiser

Departed
Staff member
Weird.

Steve, each image I post is just a link to Kaiser's Bunker.

So I just edited my posting and added the link to each image. Hopefully if you click on that each image will show for you.
 

Steve Nick

Member
Tony:

OK. The links work. Very helpful. I was having a bit of difficulty with the VW concept, but it's clear now. "Picture's worth a thousand words".

I guess what is confounding me is the fact that my wappen has the M71 VW added, and the legs are not voided. OK so far. The anomaly is that the chest feathers are not overlapped. Did the 1871 Wappen delete the feather overap?

Hope I'm not trying your patience. I do appreciate the help.
 

SkipperJohn

Active member
Tony,
I can see the photos and the website just fine.

Steve,
I had that problem once. I cleared out "cookies" (whatever they are), deleted my browsing history, and ran a scan on my computer and the problem went away. I'm no whiz kid at this so I probably just got lucky.

I wrote some additional info on Wappens here:
https://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=13705&sid=78bc08a973677752ceb5ee446f8bf854


John
 

Steve Nick

Member
John:

Thanks for the link to your article.

It's very informative and I did find a photo in the article of the wappen on my helmet.

Thanks for helping me out on this.

Cheers;

Steve
 

Tony without Kaiser

Departed
Staff member
The only small thing I can offer to that superb article John, is the M1867 Wappen is identical to M1860 but with the slides.

And Steve the M1867 was the last time all troops wore the same Wappen with overlapping chest feathers, and vertical tail feathers. On the M1871 the Wappen for all troops except Kürassier was changed as discussed above. So yes in my opinion your Metalhelm has a standard M1871 Wappen. Who knows why or when it was added.
 

Steve Nick

Member
John and Tony:

Thanks a lot for going out of your way to explain the evolution of these cavalry wappens.

The confusion has now dissipated. At least as far as this issue goes.
 

stuka f

Active member
Love those helmets.
Had a nice GdC in my previous collection.
But still glad I managed to get this one.
Came out of the woodwork, in a house clearing.
I do have his liner, but keep it separated.


 

Steve Nick

Member
Stuka:


Now that's interesting. Your helmet is sporting the same wappen as mine.

It would seem that the somewhat unconventional helmet plate I showed is not a "one off". Maybe these two helmets originate from the same regiment?
 
Top