Reserve Cross stamped into body of wappen?

seagull

Active member
Wondering if this is yet another fake sent to torment me. Can Wappen be found with the reserve cross integral to the eagle?
Thanks for looking,
Steve4f6d2942-81b0-4f62-bb4e-ad9d00b9c7e6.jpg
 

seagull

Active member
Seller "thoughtfully" omitted to post a rear view, hence my query. Bad image, whole thing the same coppery colour, no matter how much you zoom in you can't see the edges of the cross. Taken with your advice, looks like time to walk away.
Thanks Tony - again.
 

911car

Well-known member
Wondering if this is yet another fake sent to torment me. Can Wappen be found with the reserve cross integral to the eagle?
Thanks for looking,
SteveView attachment 17028
You can find enlisted eagle plates with a reserve cross stamped on them, and hence integral to the plate, but without the writing. It provided the space where the actual cross was soldered.
I have one like this on a Saxon Duchy reserve helmet. The stamped reserve cross is hidden behind the Saxon emblem, which has its own small reserve cross. I will show pictures.
 

b.loree

Administrator
Staff member
An example from my collection to illustrate the discussion:
5754760D-4F24-4C15-936A-D5287CEC0693_1_201_a.jpeg
The imprint of the cross, is stamped into the eagle's breast before the cross is soldered on.
BAFF82D3-9E8F-406E-949C-E58832EE193E_1_201_a.jpeg
The reverse clearly shows the imprint of the cross in the wappen and how the separate cross is held on. The prongs on this cross are obviously not soldered but on many that I have seen, they are, which provides a bit more security.
 

seagull

Active member
Seller is an auction house in Scotland, the barest possible description and single poor picture as above. I was aware of reservist plates with a blank cross stamped in as a sort of "platform" for the actual cross, but this seems different/wrong with the script stamped in. Almost talked myself into it as, perhaps, a cheaper grade replacement for a OYV going into the reserves - but I'll take Tony's info over my uncertain reasoning any day. Thanks all for the advice.
Steve.
 

b.loree

Administrator
Staff member
After a second look that dragoner piece looks like it has been dipped in tobacco juice. The Landwehr cross could very well be a separate neusilber piece. Crappy auction house photo though.
 

seagull

Active member
Brian you could be right about it being soaked in tobacco fumes. Personally I couldn't tell from that picture exactly what the basic metal was supposed to be, the colour is wierd. Will ask the auction a few questions, just to poke the bear, and see what transpires.
Amy, thanks for the pictures, it seems that this pattern of Reserve plate was actually more common than I thought. I note that the Cross stamping always seems centred on the chest of the eagle - sort of compensating for the absence of the bandeau?
 
Last edited:

Stirnpanzer

Member
I saw the auction, have enhance the pic for you... but need a pic of the reverse to be sure.
 

Attachments

  • wp1.jpg
    wp1.jpg
    94.4 KB · Views: 25
  • wp2.jpg
    wp2.jpg
    143.9 KB · Views: 25

seagull

Active member
Thanks for that Stirnpanzer, but even in close-up it is impossible to see the edges of the cross. If the reverse image I have requested from the auction house shows the "Gott Mit Uns.." with no pins/solder then it has to be stamped in one piece - and probably a fake - all the examples above have a blank cross when seen from the reverse. I am open to the possibility that some period manufacturer may have stamped Landwehr plates in one piece but all the examples shown support Tony's contention that the Landwehr cross MUST be seperate.
Steve
 

Tony without Kaiser

Departed
Staff member
Steve the primary reason that the Landwehr cross is always a separate layover (for all ranks including issued) is that in this case the eagle would have been frosted gilt, and the cross would have been frosted silver. No company would manufacture a Prussian eagle of any pattern with the cross as part of the stamping. The Landwehr cross would have to be painted silver. They just were not made like that.

Back to your auction. As mentioned before until you see an image of the reverse and see that impression in the stamping to position the cross, you won’t know for sure, but I will say the detail on the front to the feathers, crown, etc. and the sharp letters on the cross is what I would expect to see on an original.

As an aside, some manufactures did not make that impression for the cross so the eagles chest is just feathers on the reverse.
 

seagull

Active member
Point well taken Tony. As always I am here to learn- and enjoy the process. IF I get a reverse picture (and its a big if) I will know the truth of the matter. From that poor picture I could not tell if it was a brass/gilt wappen or a neusilber version, in both cases covered in a thick layer of !%&**.
I have a spare neusilber wappen below but the rest of my EM helmet is brass mounted so: no match, hence my looking hopefully at this one.
Perhaps we shall see, if they get back to me. Thanks for looking.
Steve
DSCF9322 (2).JPG
 

Tony without Kaiser

Departed
Staff member
One last thing I forgot; some manufacturers of private purchase (officer) Wappen used a brass or Tombak Landwehr cross and then silver washed it (issued are always (Neusilber). Those silver washes fade over the years, and you end up with, for example, a brass eagle with a brass Landwehr cross as in that auction. Those are unattractive in my opinion and you don't get that pleasing contrast between the two metals as in Amy's example in posting Nr.10.

One more last thing; you say above you have an OR's helmet? Then shouldn't you be looking at an issued OR's Wappen with a solid crown?
 
Last edited:

seagull

Active member
I have seen a couple of those faded silver-wash crosses in the past and bore that in mind when looking at the subject wappen. As I said, I just couldn't identify what colour metals I was looking at : wappen OR cross. I am actively seeking an EM brass/gilt wappen with solid crown but unfortunately for me they are pretty much non-existent where I am - even online, and I DO spend a lot of time looking. This is the only Dragoner wappen I have seen for sale lately and it asked more questions than it answered.
 

Naprawiacz

Active member
Point well taken Tony. As always I am here to learn- and enjoy the process. IF I get a reverse picture (and its a big if) I will know the truth of the matter. From that poor picture I could not tell if it was a brass/gilt wappen or a neusilber version, in both cases covered in a thick layer of !%&**.
I have a spare neusilber wappen below but the rest of my EM helmet is brass mounted so: no match, hence my looking hopefully at this one.
Perhaps we shall see, if they get back to me. Thanks for looking.
Steve
View attachment 17043
Steve this wappen is cracked on the wings and you can see that they are soldered.Waste of money.Regards.
 
Top