Sachsen Pickelhaube Mystery

  • Thread starter Thread starter Anonymous
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Guilty as charged (as I said, a shameless attempt). I started a thread on M15 Offizier Pickelhauben on the original forum. Perhaps the time has come to revive it.

Chas.
 
Fair enough, Mike. Please take a look at item 60414, Sachsen Pickelhaube für einen Reserveoffizier im Leib-Grenadier Rgt. 100, at Helmut Weitze's site.

I have borrowed one of his pictures to provide a second example of a plain rear spine on a Sachsen Offizier helmet.

60414_8.jpg


Two examples do not establish a trend, but it is persuasive. This brings us back to the original debate of what features constitute a period upgrade in the status of a helmet.

From all the information and pictures exchanged in this topic, I would argue if an issued style liner was a legitimate option for a Diensthelm, it would most likely be found in a Sachsen helmet. We have learned things about Sachsen helmets none of us would have believed prior to seeing Steve's incredible Einjährigfreiwilliger helmet.

There's little doubt in my mind the Sachsen liner (styled as it is) is superior in quality to that in the Württemberg. I know this isn't evidence, just common sense. Which would you rather wear?

Back on topic?

Chas.
 
Just to keep the thread going, the following Saxon officers helmet may be of interest. The fiitngs are gilt and the front plate is secured by screw posts (no extra holes). The spike has 2 incised lines and unscrews. The rear spine is officer style. There is a green "Awes Marke" paper label in the helmet. Note the front visor shape. This helmet has never been anything but a Saxon officer helmet.

Reservist1
 
Note the front visor shape.
Click to expand...
R1 you probably already know this but those semi bent visors seem to be an Awes Marke thing.
Here is mine and a Bavarian that has a real square visor with trim. Yours has no colored lining on the visors but is not reserve...... Hmmmmmm
Once again I am starting to wonder if there was some sort of Saxon Landwehr difference.......

awsvisor.jpg

nonawsvisor.jpg


Why no cross? Gilt on gilt?
saxon%20landwehrruhl1902.jpg
 
epsomgreen said:
In a shameless attempt to stretch this topic to seven pages,
Click to expand...

Chas will get his wish by the looks of it. But to be fair Chas, I think you should move that Wurt Helm to the M15 discussion. Otherwise the 7 pages will be ill-gotten. :-k

Say......... is that the first photo you have actually posted R1? Or did I miss others. Nice helmet, early liner, sewn up the back?

I echo what Joe said, I have seen several helmets with that odd front visor shape, not squared, but not rounded. Could this have been a 'fashion' issue like the Über spikes?
 
I dont think that nearly squared shape is unique to Awes, Joe. Recently I saw a nice Vulkanfiber Rgt.101 helmet with that shape visor marked 'Depaheg Patent'. I heard also that it was a late-ish fashion thing too. :tongue4:
 
Joe: I think perhaps the illustration you posted of the Saxon Landwehr officer uniform may have been originally drawn incorrectly with respect to the helmet front plate. Here is a portion of plate #149 (Reserve und Landwehr Offiziere) from Das Deutsche Heer, volume 3.
 
Hi Tony: I have posted a few other images. Thanks for the comments on the helmet. It does have a very early style liner. The rear of the body is not sewn. Front visor rails that are between rounded and squared may indeed have been a fashion thing. They must have been very popular with Saxons as just about every Saxon officer helmet seems to have this style visor rail. It is definitely not unique to A. Werner & Sohne (Awes Marke).

Reservist1
 
just about every Saxon officer helmet seems to have this style visor rail. It is definitely not unique to A. Werner & Sohne (Awes Marke).
Click to expand...
Hmmmm seems quite right! 3 helmets from Randy's collection with the visor and one from mine without.
sax100.jpg

Sax%20101.jpg

SaxonGS.jpg
saxres.jpg


I think perhaps the illustration you posted of the Saxon Landwehr officer uniform may have been originally drawn incorrectly with respect to the helmet front plate.
Click to expand...

It is of course possible that this source (Ruhl) is wrong. Tafel 149 shows gilt wappen on gilt star and does not differentiate between Reserve / Landwehr. Yet we have silver wappen on gilt stars and gilt wappen on gilt stars. Fashion? Style? Some meaning? Hilsenbeck in his Officerhelme book shows a Wurt Reserve Officer with gilt cross on gilt wappen and calls it Landsturm. I'm not sure what any of tis means. Detlev was selling the complete Saxon Verordnungblätter for $700. Randy and I talked about it but I don't have room......

Ok I'll do something on the Saxon Officer trichters stand by.....
 
So having only Prussian Regs I used this to guide me on Officer trichters.
Pruss_trichter1.jpg


15CM seemed right and normal. However our friends the Saxons had another regulation slightly different.
Sax_trichter1.jpg

It changed by branch! Their Cavalry metalhelms also had 12CM trichters.
 
Joe: Stubbs discusses the shape of Saxon officer front visor rails on pages 204 and 397 of Imperial German Military Officers' Helmets & Head Dress 1871-1018

Reservist1
 
Stubbs discusses the shape of Saxon officer front visor rails on pages 204 and 397 of Imperial German Military Officers' Helmets & Head Dress 1871-1018
Click to expand...


indeed he does....catagorically--- never noticed this before. Thanks!

Did'nt someone mention something on the old forum about Sachsen gilt wappen on gilt star= Doctor?
Click to expand...

Yes the idea was floated but tafel 157-158 contradicted the idea.
 
reservist1 said:
Clearly a private purchase helmet. A possibility to consider is that it may have been assembled after the war from left over parts for use in film/theatrical productions.
Click to expand...
Looking at Eddie's Sachsen Reserve Fußartillerie-Regiment Nr. 12/19 Kugelhelm (with Diensthelm characterisitics) in the "For Sale" forum motiviated me to make yet another inspection of my Pickelhaube; the Sachsen which started this topic last January. For the first time ever, and under subdued light, I spotted something so faint, it was barely perceptable:

Landestheater-1.jpg


This ink stamp is situated on the inside neck visor. I used Photoshop to coax out additional detail, but the effort was largely fruitless. However, one key word is legible, Landestheater, (National Theater).

I don't know if this completely solves the "Sachsen Pickelhaube Mystery," but R1's hunch was certainly on the mark.

To what extent the Sachsen was altered for theatrical use will never be known. Perhaps it remained unchanged as Landestheater property and the stamp represents the sole modification. In any event, this turned out to be a great thread, and I thank all who contributed. We learned about Diensthelme and Verkauft issued helmets, and had some fun along the way.

Chas.
 
Hi,

We should open a new thread...for the Bavarians.

Please have a look on this one:

Bavarian issue mle96 but for OYV, tall spike and off type liner

http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180047937324&rd=1&rd=1

Best regards

Eric[/u]
 
Eric: Take a look at this thread.

http://pickelhaubes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=534&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0&sid=09aae0ae34dcfff535650c7afd4aff91

Reservist1
 
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