Sachsen Pickelhaube Mystery

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Hello Friends:

I have been following an interesting debate in the "Uniforms and Accessories" forum.

http://www.pickelhaubes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=737

To place some of this in context, it will help to review this WA post, beginning with #39.

http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136533

What I would like to revisit here is the subject of upgraded helmets. As a general rule, I would regard such helmets with the utmost suspicion. However, I would appreciate your consideration regarding this example.

I make no representations about this helmet (which I purchased from Mohawk Arms early in my collecting days), and will be neither hurt nor offended by your criticism. Look at the pictures and give me your honest impressions.

PICT0434.jpg


PICT0432.jpg


PICT0433.jpg


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PICT0437.jpg


PICT0439.jpg


Chas.
 
Hi Joe:

No, just washers and split prongs. I might add that the circular discoloration near the left washer in the last picture is some type of adhesive residue and not the remains of an extra hole.

Chas.
 
Hi Joe:

I'm afraid I must plead ignorance to the term "Diensthelme." My brain translates the word as service helmet, but the distinction must be more specific than that. For example, how would a Diensthelme differ from a Fähnrich helmet?

I think it would be useful to evaluate the helmet component by component. I doubt there is a absolute right or wrong interpretation of this Sachsen.

The shell is ink stamped size 57-1/2 on the neck visor. This represents the only legible manufacturing data.

Opinions welcomed.

Chas. :(
 
Chas: Clearly a private purchase helmet. A possibility to consider is that it may have been assembled after the war from left over parts for use in film/theatrical productions.

In the discussions about "upgraded helmets" I believe it is important to separate issue helmets from private purchase. As Tony has so often stated, issue helmets were crown property that had to be turned in. I do not believe any "upgraded" issue helmet to be legitimate. Private purchase helmets are an entirely different story and just about anything is possible.

Reservist1
 
may be its me being thick and not knowing much but i thought all officers helmets came with a leather sweatband and were cloth lined ,if the split picture shown is the plate i have seen these before rather than using a loop and leather tapered holder ,i also thought most of the plates on officers were held on with nuts but im no expert far from it , many thx oops forgot this arnt the front and back peaks cloth lined on officers pickelhaubes ?
 
The primary reason for buying a private purchase helmet in the first place, is comfort. After 1880 that would (usually) be a fine leather sweatband coupled by a silk skull cap.

You see this on Mannschaften helmets all the time, especially on Bayern helmets whcih externally look identical to an issued one with M91 posts and M95 sliding air vent, but the interior is the above mentioned post-1880 officer pattern.

So if comfort is the primary reason, why on earth would an officer buy a helmet with an issue pattern liner? Or, could he even buy one? The issue pattern liners are found on issue helmets. I doubt very much that a distributor of Pickelhaubes for private purchase would even offer this liner. It's like a fine restaurant offering $5 wine.

All the fittings look correct including the prongs, which appear on officer Wappens, but rarely. See the pic below. The helmet looks like it has been together for a very long time though. I have no explanation. But I do not believe it is from pre Nov 1918.


officer_prong2.jpg
 
how would a Diensthelme differ from a Fähnrich helmet?
Click to expand...

A Fähnrich could have a Diensthelme. A Diensthelme would be a lower class helmet used for daily service. These were much cheaper and had leather liners. You could not tell a Diensthelme from the outside. A Fähnrich helmet would be different from the outside. Cockades would be smaller, and there would be something not officer like, perhaps pearlring, wappen or rings on the spike. Or maybe all of the above. In the example below, the Fahnenjunker Diensthelme has a leather chin strap not chin scales for line regiments. I agree with reservist that in the private purchase world you could pretty much buy anything.

pg28d.jpg


If an individual was let's say a one year volunteer. He could use a private purchase Diensthelme for his entire service time in the active force.
If the individual elected and was allowed to continue on toward the reserve commission, it would be an easy step to upgrade that Diensthelme into a reserve officers helmet. This would all be private purchase of course.

issue helmets were crown property that had to be turned in. I do not believe any "upgraded" issue helmet to be legitimate.
Click to expand...
On the issue side, which this Saxon is not, I think reservist has shrunk the question to a nutshell. I do not agree. I have no proof -- -- yet -- -- but I do not believe that many of the senior Portepeeunteroffiziere actually turned this stuff in. Been wrong before....
 
joerookery said:
A Diensthelme would be a lower class helmet used for daily service. These were much cheaper and and leather liners. You could not tell a Diensthelme from the outside.
Click to expand...

You bet. But they did not have an issue pattern liner. The standard private purchase Lederfutter is the same as the pre-1880 officer liner shown below. These are the leather liners you would find in a private purchase Diensthelme.

hp15b.jpg
 
I don't know Tony could be. There is no picture of the liner in any catalog that I currently have. The Neumann catalog for instance is a full two decades older than the pre-1880 liner. Seems to me with different manufacturers you could get different products. You could also get a Diensthelme with an upgraded liner. So crummy leather, but a good comfortable liner if comfort was your driving factor.

I do not think that all manufacturers made either square or round liner fingers for the entire time. No one has any pictures that I know of. Interestingly, there is one reference in Neumann to a leather screen liner for use on a Kurassier helm.
 
You are right of course. Saying that ALL manufacturer's made absolutely identical liners is a generalization. But the issued pattern in my mind, would be too "low on the totem pole" for a distributor to offer.

joerookery said:
A lot of silence on this one.//
Click to expand...

That changed quick huh? :glasses8:
 
That changed quick huh?
Click to expand...
Yes indeed!

But the issued pattern in my mind, would be too "low on the totem pole" for a distributor to offer.
Click to expand...

Of course Neumann is a subset, and there are no pictures, however he does offer a low class. Beamte helmet with a leather liner and I do not recall Beamte helmets with square tipped liners only round. I am sure there are square tipped ones somewhere, but where did the round fingered ones come from? :thumb up: Great topic!
 
Hi Guys:

Thanks for ringing in on this. I really value your opinions. My thinking is the helmet (by this I mean the shell) represents an economy grade of private purchase. The quality of the leather is incredibly high, and the issue style liner is reminiscent of fine calfskin or kid leather. This extends to the "drawstring," which matches the grain and dye of the liner exactly.

Somebody raised the issue in a previous thread as to whether M15 Pickelhauben were available in 1/2 sizes. I can't recall if there was a consensus, but, for an issued helmet, what would be the point of 5mm increments? Either get a haircut, let it grow, or put some newspaper behind the liner to adjust the fit. However, this helmet is stamped 57-1/2. I have officer helmets in half sizes, but no issued Mannschaften.

The visor trim is private purchase quality. The helmet was never fitted with Knopf 91 or a tin interior support disc for the spike. However, the confounding variable is an issue quality pre-1895 (no shutter) rear spine (which appears to have been with the helmet since its beginnings).

Now for the furniture which could be swapped out or altered by anyone.

The spike is quite tall (regarded by some as characteristic of Sachsen helmets), fixed, and static.

There is a deep "footprint" of a slightly larger Sachsen star in the surface of the shell. One can easily see this at the seven, nine, and 10 o'clock positions. The present star is not very gewölbt and strikes me more as an issued star. It is possible an officer pattern Sachsen crest was mated to a Mannschaften star.

The Kokarden are original and correct Sachsen officer pattern.

The chinscales are brass (non magnetic) and of very high quality.

To summarize, the helmet has been altered, but is has always been a Sachsen helmet. Other than the present Wappen, I feel all the other furniture has always been a part of the helmet. I would love to see the reverse of the star, but I just can't bring myself to mess with those prongs.

I certainly can't disagree with any of the points raised.

It's pure conjecture, but I can honestly see some benighted junior officer, in a rush and in need of an extra helmet for field wear, stopping by a distributor and settling for a crazy quilt like this. Put an Überzug on it and who would know? Wear it into battle and who would care? Maybe the fellow was allergic to silk. Square tongues vs. round tongues is an important point to consider. I think quality of leather would take precedence over final cut. Unfortunately, there simply isn't enough documentary evidence to review.

reservist1 said:
Private purchase helmets are an entirely different story and just about anything is possible.
Click to expand...
It makes sense to me. Regardless of what it is, or why it is, you have to admit, it looks pretty darn good.

Chas.
 
Chas: The rear spine without ventilator is not necessarily pre 1895. It could be post 1895 mounted troops. In this case probably train or field artillery.

Reservist1
 
Hi R1:

Yes, I'm familiar with this spine on Feld Artillerie helmets, but I didn't know about Train Bataillon incorporating it too. I have a TB 8 Mannschafts that is right as rain and has a shuttered spine.

I wrote above that the spine was issue quality, but I have rethought this. The attachment inside the rear visor is a domed brad (not a integral threaded bolt and nut). In my collection, the domed fastener only appears on the privately purchased Mannschaftshelm.

Chas.
 
Chas, do you think the star is possibly not original to the helmet. There seems to be no footprint on the right hand side and top point? Could'nt this be the leather moving over time?
 
Chas: I have seen unit marked issue train helmets with both vented and non vented rear spines. I agree that the domed fastener on the bottom of the rear spine sounds like private purchase. I think what really distinguishes it from an officer type rear spine is that yours does not have the ridge around the edge typical of an officer rear spine.

Reservist1
 
My 2 cents worth.. a reminder that all that really counts, is the outside ie what people see. So I would support Chas on this, if the outside looks private purchase and the leather shell is lighter, then who cares about the liner. Lets save some of Mom and Dad's cash. There are just soooooo, many variables on this private purchase stuff that it boggles the mind. I would also like to raise the point that with the official issue hauben we can have mass production. I have a factory , an approved "probe", a government contract for 10,000 hauben and I am ready to go. So I produce everything according to Govt regulations. Then we have the private purchase "carriage trade" part of the market. The usual rules in this case do not apply. I would suspect that in this case, there were smaller manufacturers/craftsmen who produced custom hauben with a wide variety of variations to suit the demands of who ever walked in the door with the money to pay for them. In our time we know that this same sort of custom leather work exists but it costs big bucks, the stuff of milionaires!!! However, in this WW1 period and before, these small custom craftsmen have not yet been whiped out by the big companies. They still can offer high quality custom hauben to the customer. We, the people of our era know very little of this type of custom craftsmanship..Walmart etc have seen to that. If it aint production then it aint available except for those who can pay. People of today have to pay big bucks for hand crafted custom leather goods. At the turn of the century, you could still go to a shoe maker who would make you a pair of shoes to fit. Our shoe makers today can only repair shoes they do not make them!! Things were different in 1900. Brian
 
Hey Brian,
I will throw in my two cents, You are indicationg that the private purchase Hauben were produced by another manufacturer, I would suspect that companies that produce Hauben for the Kammer would also sell private purchase items too. It is my understanding that officers and OYVs did not have the option of going to a Kammer and acquiring any property of the crown, so they are a captive group for the manufactureres to sell too. I agree that some OYVs and officers would not have the money to pruchase the custom liner. A Haube that is the same as a standard production Haube would be rather cheaper for the man on a budget. The manufactureres would also have an outlet for Hauben that did not pass inspection for issue helmets, ie, thin or thick corpus, 1/2 size ect. Most comments have been along the line that Officer's helmets were of better construction, but I would bet that a lot of helmets taht would no be accepted by the crown, found thier way to an officer with limited resources.
Gus
 
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