A
Anonymous
Guest
spikeymikey said:
Hi Mike:
You have a good eye. As much as I would like to agree with you, I don't think the Wappen is capable of perfect registration with the footprint (at least not without being so left of center it would look risible).
If one thinks about it, what kind of torque would be required for a flimsy brass chicken or star to cut into leather? I would wager the nuts would be tightened almost to the breaking point. Futhermore, how does one explain the footprints on Mannschaft Pickelhauben with Wappen secured by a leather shim through a loop? Don't laugh, but I half believe these footprints were made by a "cookie cutter" to assist in the assembly process at the factory.
I can hear the laughter.
In any event, here are a few more pictures of the Sachsen. You can judge for yourselves the quality of the liner and the corpus leather.
Chas.
ottodog8 said:
Now that is one of the most interesting things I have heard of in a long time! An issue piece marked as sold? :-s
A
Anonymous
Guest
Perhaps we should start a new thread devoted to the Eigentumshelm. I know there are plenty to choose from, and it would constitute solid research to compile statistics as to the various combinations of features.
To illustrate the point; here is my FR 73 (most likely owned by a Fähnrich).
It's an interesting contrast to the Sachsen. Here we have:
Issued style visor trim
Private purchase frosted Wappen with burnished highlights
Knopf 91
Chinstrap
46mm Kokarden
Threaded dome spike base retainers
Spike threaded to neck (FR 73 did not wear Trichter!)
Officer style rear spine
Private purchase liner
Green and red under visor panels.
Chas.
To illustrate the point; here is my FR 73 (most likely owned by a Fähnrich).
It's an interesting contrast to the Sachsen. Here we have:
Issued style visor trim
Private purchase frosted Wappen with burnished highlights
Knopf 91
Chinstrap
46mm Kokarden
Threaded dome spike base retainers
Spike threaded to neck (FR 73 did not wear Trichter!)
Officer style rear spine
Private purchase liner
Green and red under visor panels.
Chas.
3littleweasels
New member
Hello Friends and Collectors,
My Saxon E.M. Pickels back visor is marked Verkauft 1898-Check Col.J's Site under depot markings. And getting back to where Chas got the helmet from-I,ve always had tons of faith/good luck with Mohawk Arms/Ray Zyla's items-King Weasel
My Saxon E.M. Pickels back visor is marked Verkauft 1898-Check Col.J's Site under depot markings. And getting back to where Chas got the helmet from-I,ve always had tons of faith/good luck with Mohawk Arms/Ray Zyla's items-King Weasel
joerookery
Well-known member
I've been reading a bunch trying to find something definitive on the verkauft thing. Before I go much further however, I hit another snag.
At first I thought it was a Saxon thing, but I think now that they are all over the place. Thoughts?
There seem to be a few domed fasteners in issue helmets. Are there not?
At first I thought it was a Saxon thing, but I think now that they are all over the place. Thoughts?
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hi Joe:
I have my doubts about the integrity of example number two above, and regard the sloppy fit as indicative of a repair or replacement. Clearly, the spine is too long for the neck visor (provided we aren't evaluating the Incredible Shrinking Pickelhaube).
Are the spines equipped with ventilation shutters? The brad might be the patent of a specific manufacturer or contract.
Chas.
I have my doubts about the integrity of example number two above, and regard the sloppy fit as indicative of a repair or replacement. Clearly, the spine is too long for the neck visor (provided we aren't evaluating the Incredible Shrinking Pickelhaube).
Are the spines equipped with ventilation shutters? The brad might be the patent of a specific manufacturer or contract.
Chas.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Gustaf said:
Hi Gus:
Mike and I were discussing this earlier today. He suggested heat would play a significant factor as well. The corpus surface would absorb heat and soften under the sun. A tightly fitted Überzug might create the conditons you describe.
I've seen the damage caused by storing a Pickelhaube in its Helmkoffer in an attic.
Chas.
Yes, heat. That's why you see so many soft leather chinstraps or chinscales have left a big smudge in the lacquer. No pressure there, just time, and a little weight, and warm lacquer.
So there I was, a glass of red wine in one hand, with the other sticking my fingers under the rear visor of dozens of issued helmets like Helen Keller feeling for a brad or nuts. Like Helen Keller feeling for a nuts? I may want to re-word that.......
At any rate, out of XX number of helmets, I actually found one. It is my Model 1891 Preußen Foot Artillery Regt 8 Mannschaften Pickelhaube.
And I looked inside to enjoy those fantastic AF painted markings and almost dropped the helmet.......hidden by the liner, in the skull interior, was a giant black ink II for Garniture. I could not beleive it. I did not even know I had a helmet marked with a Garniture?? Hard to see, it is to the left of the black 1906 date.
So there I was, a glass of red wine in one hand, with the other sticking my fingers under the rear visor of dozens of issued helmets like Helen Keller feeling for a brad or nuts. Like Helen Keller feeling for a nuts? I may want to re-word that.......
At any rate, out of XX number of helmets, I actually found one. It is my Model 1891 Preußen Foot Artillery Regt 8 Mannschaften Pickelhaube.
And I looked inside to enjoy those fantastic AF painted markings and almost dropped the helmet.......hidden by the liner, in the skull interior, was a giant black ink II for Garniture. I could not beleive it. I did not even know I had a helmet marked with a Garniture?? Hard to see, it is to the left of the black 1906 date.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hi Joe:joerookery said:
Returning to this for a moment, my imperfect translation is:
"According to regulations, with non gilded or new silver fittings. Extra service helmet shell and simple black leather liner without silk lining."
It is possible "according to regulations" implies the pattern of the liner and not just the material. Certainly, the Sachsen falls within these vague parameters. The visor trim, chinscales, and rear spine show no trace of gilt. The shell is extremely high quality.
Perhaps, just perhaps, we are evaluating a Fahnenjuncker Diensthelm upgraded to reflect commissioned officer status.
What does the digitized part of the advert reveal?
Chas.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Or Angelina Jolie, perhaps.Tony & Kaiser said:
Tony,
What an incredible discovery! I have a feeling you'll be doing a lot more of this in the near future.
Chas.
joerookery
Well-known member
Maybe its a rainy Saturday golf day, is not this what we were talking about all along? Diensthelm. Sometimes I get the impression.....
not much he just says you can't return or exchange these kinds of helmets for modification. Same kind of comment that the DOV catalog had.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Indubitably. We're not splitting the atom, but there has been some splitting of hairs en route. I was placing emphasis on the Fahnenjuncker description. Remember, some among us held the belief the Sachsen was a post 1918 fabrication. There has been more than one point of view on the subject.joerookery said:
Just endeavoring to keep the thread alive. :-k
Chas.
spikeymikey
Member
'The Thread needs Love, Jim'......I mean Chas.
joerookery said:
Well, the real point in my mind, is to keep an open mind in this hobby. I also thought that only hex-nuts were used on issued helmets, but there I found an undeniably issued one with a large rounded brad here of all places. Not the flat small private purchase type, so this must be what the manufacturer used.
I also snorted and scoffed Joe's hypothesis about Garniture marks in helmets until he produced examples. And imagine my surprise last night to find that one in my collection. :blackeye:
I still remain, however, very suspicious about helmets with officer fittings and round-finger issue pattern liners. =;
A
Anonymous
Guest
Quite rightly so. Doctor jobs utilizing Mannschaften shells abound on eBay:Tony & Kaiser said:
http://cgi.ebay.com/IMP-GERMAN-BADEN-Artillery-NCO-Pickelhaube_W0QQitemZ6600293715QQcategoryZ13965QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
However, a casual glance inside usually reveals the deception immediately.
As stated previously, there can be no definitive answer regarding the legitimacy of the Sachsen helmet. However, I think it is safe to make the following statement:
Though the helmet is equipped with an issue pattern liner, the helmet was never completely prepped to be an issued Mannschaften Pickelhaube: no holes for outfitting Knopf 91, absence of Wappen holes reinforced with grommets, and presence of private purchase visor trim plus (my opinion based on the quality of this one example) private purchase rear spine.
This is why I qualified my remarks as "perhaps just perhaps."
An open mind is a terrible thing to waste.
D*mn it Jim, I'm a doctor, not a magician!
(Just for fun, try typing d*mn without the asterisk. It will come out "darn." Damn it! I'm being censored, and it isn't even programmed to capitalize. Now what about shit and fuck? Arrgh!)
Chas.
expletive deleted
reservist1
Member
Chas: Your Saxon helmet is in exceptionally nice condition, in fact so nice that, from the photos of the inside, there is no indication that the helmet has ever been worn. Had the helmet been "upgraded" by the owner upon promotion to officer I would expect to see some evidence of wear to the liner and the underside of the visors (sweat stains, elongated holes for the draw string, dirt, etc.) Given the condition and other anomalies I cannot discount possible post war assembly, in my opinion probable post war assembly. But that is just my opinion and we all know what they say about opinions.
Reservist1
Reservist1