Thuringen, region or collection of duchies/principalitlies?

1

16thIrishDivision

New member
Can anybody with a better knowledge of Germen Empire States 1871-1919 than mine, help me out with the Thuringian region. I’ve seen several nice Thuringian Pickelhaube’s; however I’m a little bit confused. Thuringen is not listed as a separate Kingdom/ duchy/principality/free city etc; I checked it out in Wikipedia. Instead it was a region, a collection of duchies and principalities. (See definition below underlined)

My real question is could an enlisted man electe to fight for the either the Thuringen region or one of the duchies or principalities that made up the region, how did this work…?. My second question is how are Thuringen Pickelhaube’s regarded by collectors, my guess is quite rare and desirable. My third question is the definition of the duchies and principalities that made up the Thuringen region below correct?. I thought I saw somewhere Ashalt was in the Thuringen region too, might be wrong on this.

‘The Thuringian duchies which became part of the German Empire in 1871 during the Prussian-led unification of Germany were Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach, Saxe-Meiningen, Saxe-Altenburg, Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, Schwarzburg-Sondershausen, Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt and the two principalities of Reuß.’
 
Thurmap.gif


Thomas,

You have hit on a question that even many Germans get wrong. I know this is self-serving but the best discussion of it in the English language is the Handbook of Imperial Germany chapter 2. In that book each of the states as well as provinces that disappeared are detailed. For instance you will hear a lot about Hanover -- the explanation is there. A very cursory website is here.

http://www.pickelhauben.net/imperialinfo.htm

Basically left over from the hundreds of enclaves of the Holy Roman Empire you can see the region in the map above. Anhalt is not part of that region. Each of these independent states had a separate vote in the Bundesrat.

Each and every one of these independent states had an agreement that basically surrendered the sovereignty of their military to the Kingdom of Prussia. While each state maintained some semblance of separate identification such as cockade or the helmet plate, they were an actual part of the Prussian army from the date of the agreements which basically followed the Prussian/Austrian war of 1866.

As recruitment was basically local it depended upon which Landwehr bersirk the resident reported to. Each of these states had a different group of Landwehrbersirk that fed different organizations. As an individual you really had little choice but to go where you were told. If you were selected for the infantry you went to the local regiment. The guard Army Corps recruited from the entire empire. The one major exception was that a one-year volunteer could join any regiment or unit that wanted them. This system changed dramatically after the war started and rules eventually went out the window.

The helmets are very desirable because they were almost entirely prewar and from a very small base. A single battalion or a single regiment were often the only guys that got to use those unique helmets. It was not long into the war that these units started using a standard Prussian Eagle. This was not true of officers who tried to maintain their regional identity.

Very complex subject and I really would recommend you to the book. It is more of a reference tool that you can go back to.

http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=60521
 
Hi Thomas, if it can help you can find good pics of some of these helmets or front plates on my website,both saxon duchies, schwarzburg rudolstadt, anhalt, oldenburg, hanover, reuss etc, infanterie regiment 91,93,94,95,96
http://www.imperialhelmets.com/plate/
http://www.imperialhelmets.com/infantry-helmets/
hope this can help, enjoy your visit, cheers, Steve
 
Thanks for the replies, the reason I got Ashalt mixed up with the Thuringen region is that both their state/region cockades are green, and both have a Prussian wappen with a small state crest in the centre (each distinctive up close), easy to confuse them both at a glance.
 
Rare and expensive helmets indeed Thomas. I have OR's helmets from JRs 91,94,95, 93 plus an officer from JR95 in my collection. The officer was posted on the forum last month. The 93 is marked to the Regiment but has the ordinary brass Prussian wappen on it which supports what Joe mentioned about once the war got going they went with the Prussian plate. These "Dutchy" helmets are very cool and distinctive when they have their proper wappen. I believe that we have an old thread dealing with these on the site. I will try to post some pics shortly. Stephane...I am lusting after that "93" wappen you have on your site Ha Ha!. Please email me if you ever see another one in your travels. B
 
That’s a great lookin haube, which one of the Thuringen duchies/principalities does it hail from, deliver me from my ignorance! Can’t quite make out the cockade colours, is it a red yellow combo (Reuß maybe), think I’m half colour blind.

Came across this cockade colour listing, on a website about a year ago.

Preußen: black - white
Bayern: white - blue
Sachsen: white - green

Baden: yellow - red
Hessen: white - red
Mecklenburg-Schwerin: blue - yellow - red
Mecklenburg-Strelitz: blue - yellow - red
Oldenburg: blue - red
Sachsen-Weimar-Eisenach: green - yellow - black

Braunschweig: blue - yellow
Anhalt: green
Sachsen-Anhalt: green - white
Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha: green - white
Sachsen-Meiningen: green - white

Lippe: yellow - red
Schaumburg-Lippe: white - red - blue
Waldeck: yellow - red - black
Schwarzburg-Rudolstadt: blue - white
Schwarzburg-Sondershausen: white - blue
Reuß : yellow - red - black

Bremen: white - red
Hamburg: white with red cross
Lübeck: white with red cross
 
This is from the principalty of Reuss, Thomas.
The cockade, as well as the chinstrap, are original to this very helmet.
Picture629.jpg
 
They almost split up in the war of 1866 when Sachsen-Altenburg, Sachsen-Coburg-Gotha and Schwarzburg-Sondershausen went with Prussia and Sachsen-Meiningen and Reuß ältere Linie supported Austria.

Here is a very informative site, although in German. The individual states are linked to extra web pages that give more specific information:

http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/thueringische_staaten.htm

http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/herzogtum_sachsen-altenburg.htm

http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/herzogtum_sachsen-coburg-gotha.htm

http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/fuerstentum_schwarzburg-sondershausen.htm

http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/herzogtum_sachsen-meiningen.htm

http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/fuerstentum_reuss_aeltere_linie.htm

http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/grossherzogtum_sachsen-weimar.htm

http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/fuerstentum_schwarzburg-rudolstadt.htm

http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/fuerstentum_reuss_juengere_linie.htm


Actually it was the Bundesrat, sort of a federal Council of the "Norddeutsche Bund" (North German Confederation) that made the decisions, at least on the paper I think. This was dominated by Prussia due to its size. But at least in theory they kept their status as independent states and evidently the people of these states did have a strong feeling of belonging together.
 
b.loree said:
I have bid on it.
Click to expand...
Be careful, Brian. The reverse of the Wappen is really lacking in detail and looks like an electroformed reproduction to me. The placement of the threaded retainers also looks suspicious. Furthermore, the seller will not guarantee originality. I would ask for better pictures.

Chas
 
I'm considering buying this Thuringen haube, click on link below, any opinion good bad or indifferent would be appreciated.
https://www.weitze.net/detail/11/Thueringen_Pickelhaube_fuer_Mannschaften_im_6_Thueringischen_Infanterie_Regiment_Nr_95__103311.html
 
Thomas,

I sent you my comments -- I vote no on this one due to the mixture of things and a requirement to try to explain each part of the story.
 
Thanks for that Joe, and heres me thinking this one of the dealers I could trust. Who in Christs name do you trust... I read in couple of places that this crowd are of of the better ones to deal with. I suppose everyone's got their own take on things.

They have a second Thuringen listed, would you vote yea or nay on this one, different type liner, regimental markings inside.



https://www.weitze.net/detail/20/Thueringen_Pickelhaube_fuer_Mannschaften_der_Reserve_im_8_Thueringischen_Infanterie_Regiment_Nr_153_2_Bataillon__128220.html
 
Lost Skeleton said:
b.loree said:
I have bid on it.
Click to expand...
Be careful, Brian. The reverse of the Wappen is really lacking in detail and looks like an electroformed reproduction to me. The placement of the threaded retainers also looks suspicious. Furthermore, the seller will not guarantee originality. I would ask for better pictures.

Chas
Click to expand...

Nice replica.
 
Who in Christs name do you trust...
Click to expand...

I know this sounds not very helpful but you have to make the decision yourself in the long-run. I really really value the opinion of other collectors that I know are my friends. That is a major reason we get together at SOS. In my opinion it is far less important to find a good deal then to become a known entity in the collecting community. Always get a second set of eyes. We all fall into the trap of wanting them to be good. A friend who was not in the hunt will see far more clearly. They are your friends and will tell you the unvarnished opinion on the item -- you don't have to agree with their opinion it is after all your money. Sometimes collectors keep their opinions to themselves. I often jump in and have been wrong many times. Just my opinion.

Now for the second helmet -- I do not like this on several levels. But again this is just my opinion -- others might have different opinions and I may not be right. What throws me off on this one right away is the marking. JR 15 is from Westphalia. According to the writeup it was delivered to RJR 153 and has a Wappen from Thuringia. Once again the writeup says that helmets were like this upon mobilization and that this one has damage from a grenade splinter. In general, I disregard the write up however, coming from this seller I tried to follow his logic.

As far as I know -- according to my database -- JR 15 has nothing to do with anyone using the number 153. What is even more damning is that there was no RJR 153 at mobilization and I am not sure that they're even ever was one. So where did he come up with this idea?

Battle damage to the helmet is one possibility but I really really doubt it. How would he know?

So you have a damaged helmet with a very questionable series of markings. Not for me. Again this is my opinion. I would of course seek the advice of others. But I like Bruno's advice about condition. I don't always follow it but this is a damaged helmet. Far from the condition that Bruno and Karel push you towards.

Okay I will get off my soapbox now -- catch one shark and you think you know it all!
 
I agree with Joe...

You should never ever trust a dealer!

If you are not an expert ALWAYS ask for opinions on one off these online forums...

If I sound bitter, it is because I just got a bad helmet from Weitze :)
 
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