Understanding the E or Eigentum stamps

[Tony without Kaiser]

Tony, do you have some examples of the E stamp?

The article was removed from here due to changes and re-writing, so to prevent two versions, it has been placed on my webe site here>.


http://www.kaisersbunker.com/dunkelblau/headgear/Eigentum.htm

 

[dave mosher]

Tony:

Well done! Your information, examples and comments are "dead-on". Thanks for presenting this.

Dave

 

[Carlson]

Thanks for the article, Tony . . . and as always, for sharing your knowledge with the rest of us!

I'm waiting myself on delivery of a schirmmutze with a local manufacture mark and the unit stamp in it.

David

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

Thanks Dave and Dave. Dave (2nd one) you'll have to post a pic of the interior when you receive it. At least now you know what it means. I've added this to my own site as a ref and it looks better in html than a forum thread, plus the army gazette 1873 is readable. Here is the link>>
http://www.kaisersbunker.com/dunkelblau/headgear/Eigentum.htm

 

[joerookery]

Tony this is well done! The breadth of your collecting knowledge is a real wonder.


So I'll ask the stupid question...what about helmets? Garniture method was different than uniforms. E mark on hemets? The "give away" concept makes some sense in helmets but would support my position on upgrades.
What do you think?

 

[b.loree]

Very interesting T. I wonder why the NCO's were centred out for such a clothing gift. It does not strike me as usual for a government to "give" things away even if it had been worn for a year. Perhaps this was recognition of their value in the army or their salary not being that great to afford a new type of cap? Brian

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

Thanks for the kind words Joe, but I really do not deserve them. The information is just my digging through references and research. The photos Brian posted recently of shiny-new m15 shows just how beautiful issued helmets were when new. I suspect that the helmets for appearance for an NCO, where completely acceptable which is why the order for purchase and issue of caps (and later tunics it appears) did not mention helmets. I have never seen a helmet marked with E or Eigentum and do not expect to. However, one never knows.

I think you would agree Brian, the issued Krätchen for men were not very attractive, which must have been what precipitated this order for NCOs. Showed them as being in a position of authority? The 1873 order specifically states "each Unteroffizier" so are we to assume that covers the ranks from Unteroffizier to Feldwebel? If anyone else has E or Eigentum marked items, please post them.

 

[Carlson]

Here y'go, Tony:

Schirmmuetze stamped 4 JR, with the E stamp, with the cap manufacturer Joh. Fischer of . . . Metz, where the 4th Bavarian was garrisoned.

Thanks again for this thread.

David

 

[Chip Minx]

Well, there was no such thing as an issued visored cap, at least not until 1908. After that, there were plenty of them, but apparently in Feldgrau only.

Chip

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

Well, there was no such thing as an issued visored cap, at least not until 1908. After that, there were plenty of them, but apparently in Feldgrau only.

You are correct Chip, I should have stated no issued Dunkelblau Schirmmützen. Feldgrau yes of course. I have several myself.

I have updated the article accordingly so that is clearer. Thanx. :thumbright:

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/dunkelblau/headgear/Eigentum.htm

And nice example David!

 

[joerookery]

Is this horse too dead to beat? I admire Tony's work on the E in hats. However as the garniture system was obviously different for helmets what about the e? So I am back to what is wrong with an upgraded helmet? That poor horse.....

I am not sure if the giving of issued caps and tunics to NCOs as per the AKO order 28 June 1873 after 6 months of wear also applied to Pickelhaubes, but I have seen no evidence of this. This, in my mind would be the only explanation for a legit upgraded issued helmet, but then it would be stamped E or Eigentum.

I have never seen a helmet marked with E or Eigentum and do not expect to. However, one never knows.

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

Is this horse too dead to beat?

Yes it is.

It depends Joe on what you call an "upgraded" helmet. In the clothing articles that fall under the catagory of items stamped with E or Eigentum, they are all without exception tailor sold items.

What usually tries to get passed off as so-called "upgraded" is an issued helmet with officer parts. I am in the opinion that this is completely bogus.

But with a privately purchased helmet, if the owner changed units or what-ever, why not change the helmet? They were expensive. I just had my mess dress uniform converted from Armour to my new trade. It required quite a bit of tailoring including new leg stripe and straps colors etc. But it was a fraction of the cost of getting a new one made. Why would someone not do that with a Pickelhaube?

 

[reservist1]

I agree with Tony 100% that any issue helmet which has been "upgraded" with officer parts is completely bogus. If you are talking about private purchase helmets any combination of parts is possible.

reservist1

 

[Chip Minx]

Though it may not correlate to helmets, consider this. I was just looking today at a uniform grouping of an officer from the 164th IR. It included his belts, helmet covers (with unit number in green), photos and a tunic. What was interesting was that his field gray uniform was an issue piece that he had originally purchased from the government when he was a one year volunteer.

After he dropped out of college he rejoined the army and got a commission. Evidently, he used the same jacket as his field tunic right through the war and up to the rank of Hauptmann. I surmise that this was done in order to save money, sort of like Tony suggested. Pictures indicate that he did buy a nice officer's custom tunic for dress purposes. I guess what I am trying to say is that if such a scenario is possible, could something similar have happened with an issue spiked helmet being upgraded to an officer piece?

Chip

 

[joerookery]

I agree with Tony 100% that any issue helmet which has been "upgraded" with officer parts is completely bogus.

This really is the issue in a nutshell. Well I think maybe the only upograde we are discussing is a pierced wappen. I hold the minority opinion or maybe Chip is with me. I agree when it comes to Kammer issued items. But an NCO who is part of the regimental establishment and has been there for a while cherry picks the Kammer and keeps his own kit. So if you find a period photo with an issue visor trim and a pierced eagle.....

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

//I was just looking today at a uniform grouping of an officer from the 164th IR. It included his belts, helmet covers (with unit number in green), photos and a tunic. What was interesting was that his field gray uniform was an issue piece that he had originally purchased from the government when he was a one year volunteer. Chip

Hi Chip,

That article is on the Wehrmacht-Awards forum and I have seen it of course. I thought he stopped being a one year volunteer in 1904? I cannot confirm this, as the WA forum is down right now.

Evidently, he used the same jacket as his field tunic right through the war and up to the rank of Hauptmann. I surmise that this was done in order to save money, sort of like Tony suggested. Pictures indicate that he did buy a nice officer's custom tunic for dress purposes. I guess what I am trying to say is that if such a scenario is possible, could something similar have happened with an issue spiked helmet being upgraded to an officer piece?Chip

The WA thread concerns issued items being purchased (or obtained somehow) by officers. This thread on the Pickelhaubes.com involves authorized private purchase items being issued to NCOs. That seems to me to be completely opposite to what this thread is about. But it is an interesting contrast.

Dan (the owner) of that set on the WA Forum has not indicated any clear provenance that I am aware of. Perhaps he got it from a family, perhaps from a dealer. Now, Dan is a very good guy and I don't doubt that he believes this at face value. However, I have seen 'family' groups where it was a pile of things from different people, men and officers.

Sometimes these things get put together, medals from several relatives that all end up on the same medal bar is a typical example. Tunics and helmets get "put back together" by dealers or even family members.

If this issued Feldrock actually did belong to the officer in question, this would seem to be more of an anomaly than a policy. Perhaps officers in several units were issued Feldrock to make them less conspicuous. This of course is possible. But the idea that a BA was like a canteen where an officer could walk in and purchase a Feldrock is incorrect in my opinion. I would argue this especially applies to Einjährig-Freiwilliger. Officers and Einjährig-Freiwilliger were expected to buy their clothing, and that means from a distributor, not the Quartermaster as far as I am aware.

Even now, I cannot waltz in as an officer to the Clothing dept and buy clothing, as it is Crown property. The BA stamps on issued clothing articles was there for a purpose, to identify the articles as crown property. If the tuni was "purchased" by the officer (which seems highly unlikely) then would it not have been marked Eigentum to identify it as not being crown property?

I also just cannot see how even a NCO "field promoted" could modify an issued Pickelhaube. Besides, in the field, where would he get the private purchase parts? This seems to be conveniently missed by people who have one of these "hybrid" helmets and defend them as 'field upgrades' which is a form of rationalization in my opinion. Freud would be applauding.

I see a tunic as being very different from a helmet. An officer's Pickelhaube could be likened to a badge of rank. No officer in the Imperial Army, in my opinion, would walk around in an issued helmet with replaced parts, as every other officer would recognize this immediately and he would be laughed out of the Btln mess. I stand by my belief that any issued Pickelhaube with "add on " officer parts are a complete fabrication. To echo Joe, show me a photo that clearly proves this. Then I will believe it.

And for issued Feldrock with officer boards, I would not buy one, even thought I've seen scores of them for sale. No thanks. T

 

[Chip Minx]

Tony,

Well at least my question sparked some thought! I tend to agree with you concerning the upgrading of issue enlisted helmets to an officer's type. Not very likely. On the other hand, I totally disagree with you concerning officers being able to acquire issue tunics for wear. I have seen too many of them that I know are good and untampered with. I can think of three specifically that have officer's boards to the same unit that is marked on the lining inside. I own one of them. Not only are the boards from the same unit as the markings, but the removable boards have been tacked down to keep them stable. You can poo poo this and the others that I have seen, but you won't convince me that they were not worn this way during the period. [-(

Chip

 

[Tony without Kaiser]

//I totally disagree with you concerning officers being able to acquire issue tunics for wear.

And you can! And you will still get a Christmas card from NB. I suppose the problem I have, is the belief that officers in could walk in and purchase crown property.

Officers are a critical commodoty to any Army so I could accept that perhaps, in some units, officers were issued tunics so they would not be targetted during attacks because they are wearing different uniforms. This to me, seems more plausable. But, this is my opinion only. T

 

[kaiserzeit]

I wonder if we need to take a step back on this one.

A number of possibilities exist which may lead to a legitimate upgrading of issue tunics and 'haubes.

If an Unteroffizier was to receive a promotion in the field while at the Front, well outside of Germany he would have to rely on his own devices. When these guys were in the thick of it, the DOV in Berlin or wherever was a very long way away:

1) Very likely there were itinerant merchants who dealt in uniform accoutrements and more than likely took measurements for having uniforms tailored and delivered to the Front. These traders might have had a few trunks full of helmet badges, shoulderboards and other more portable bits and pieces for quick sale.

2) I would not be at all surprised if a senior officer might give his old Leutnant boards to a newly promoted man. On the same merit, an experienced officer might have a spare badge with him as part of his kit. Recall, he probably owned two, three or four helmets anyway.

3) Experienced soldiers, and NCO's are the most experienced and resourceful of the lot, would know how best to get something in the field if they needed it, though a completely new tunic or pickelhaube might have been a bit of a stretch.

4) Macabre as it sounds, isn't it possible that such things as helmets and helmet furniture, badges of rank might have been recycled? If a helmet or jacket got left in a dugout and its original owner "didn't make it back," I can see pragmatism and desperation playing a part.

5) Lest we forget, there is always the camp weasel who can make anything appear if the price is right.

Later in the war, German supply lines were sorely stretched so there would have been shortages which wouldn't have helped at all.

I wouldn't pretend to know but I suspect that any of the above is a very real possibility.

Cheers,

Laurie

 

[joerookery]

As the leading defender of upgradable helmets, I have to admit that Tony and I agree that a photograph would be the best way to show it. It is very hard to find a picture of a helmet or you can determine whether the eagle is pierced or not. Nonetheless, I continue my search.

Many of the things you wrote are right Laurie, and some gave me a good chuckle.

Very likely there were itinerant merchants who dealt in uniform accoutrements and more than likely took measurements for having uniforms tailored and delivered to the Front. These traders might have had a few trunks full of helmet badges, shoulderboards and other more portable bits and pieces for quick sale.

.

These guys always amazed me. They would show up in a most unlikely place at a most unlikely time and charge huge sums for small things. Some people bought from them, obviously, or they would have gone out of business.

I would not be at all surprised if a senior officer might give his old Leutnant boards to a newly promoted man. On the same merit, an experienced officer might have a spare badge with him as part of his kit.

In the American army this was a big thing. It is often considered an honor to wear the rank badges of someone well-respected. This was especially true of dress uniform parts, which were infrequently used and very expensive.

Macabre as it sounds, isn't it possible that such things as helmets and helmet furniture, badges of rank might have been recycled? If a helmet or jacket got left in a dugout and its original owner "didn't make it back," I can see pragmatism and desperation playing a part.

I have heard of this kind of thing happening. My experience is that no one would touch it.

I'm still looking for a picture of a Feldwebel wearing and issued helmet with a pierced eagle.