what wappen is that?

hamtaro

hamtaro

New member
Hi guys,

I cant really determine what wappen are those soldiers wearing? A saxon? But they appear to be too big and massive for a Saxon wappen.
What are those actually?

http://cgi.ebay.com/WW1-1910s-photo-GERMAN-OFFICER-w-SPIKE-HELMET-wedding_W0QQitemZ220004752415QQihZ012QQcategoryZ13965QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Thanks
BB
 
The helmet wappen looks a lot more like a Mecklenburg-Strelitz wappen than a Saxon one, but I could be totally wrong.


xyz9dg.jpg
 
Hi Mike:
Sorry, I have to disagree here. The Mecklenburg Star has the bottom "rays" cut off so that they do not interfere with the front visor. The bottom edge of the wappen fits flush with the top of the front visor. My vote is still Saxon officer wappen in this case. However, they do come from the era where we see a more a more protruding look to the wappen. Simply put, they were made to stick out more than previous helmet plates. The most common examples we see are the Garde officer wappen with large protruding Garde stern on them. I believe that Tony has some pics on his site showing examples of the different Garde wappen. Brian
 
The Mecklenburg Schwerin front plate is flattened on the bottom but the Mecklenburg Strelitz front plate is an 8 pointed star very similar to the Saxon front plate.

meck8af.jpg


The center wappen on the Mecklenburg Strelitz plate is round where the center weappen on the Saxon plate is oval. From the photo it is not clear if the center wappen is round or oval. However, I believe the fellow is a Saxon. If you look at his belt it appears to be silver with 2 side stripes. Saxon officer belts are silver with 2 green stripes. Mecklenburg Schwerin & Mecklenburg Strelitz belts are silver with one interrupted blue side stripe, one interrupted red side stripe and an interrupted yellow center stripe.

Reservist1
 
reservist1 said:
The Mecklenburg Schwerin front plate is flattened on the bottom but the Mecklenburg Strelitz front plate is an 8 pointed star very similar to the Saxon front plate.

meck8af.jpg


The center wappen on the Mecklenburg Strelitz plate is round where the center weappen on the Saxon plate is oval. From the photo it is not clear if the center wappen is round or oval. However, I believe the fellow is a Saxon. If you look at his belt it appears to be silver with 2 side stripes. Saxon officer belts are silver with 2 green stripes. Mecklenburg Schwerin & Mecklenburg Strelitz belts are silver with one interrupted blue side stripe, one interrupted red side stripe and an interrupted yellow center stripe.

Reservist1
Click to expand...

As I said, I was probably wrong, but the wappen looks quite round to me, not oval at all, and that's why I thought it looked more like a Mecklenburg Strelitz wappen. I used the same two wappen examples you've used Reservist1. The jacket cuffs looked Saxon (I think) but I just don't see the oval-ishness (is there such a word??) of the center part of the wappen. And you are, of course, right about the belt, which I didn't even notice. :P
 
The centre wappen looks oval on my computer and it definately has an extra wreath of oak and laurel leaves surrounding it. I wish I had a pic of one of these protruding Saxon wappen that I mentioned. I have seen them but do not have an example in my collection. Perhaps one of our other members has one to show us?? Brian
 
b.loree said:
The centre wappen looks oval on my computer and it definately has an extra wreath of oak and laurel leaves surrounding it. I wish I had a pic of one of these protruding Saxon wappen that I mentioned. I have seen them but do not have an example in my collection. Perhaps one of our other members has one to show us?? Brian
Click to expand...
Thanks, Brian, it could be my computer making the wappen look circular instead of oval I guess! :P
 
What abt the spike? Perhaps we can determine it through the spike, is it a fluted or a non fluted spike.
Does Saxon/Meck/Strelitz has a fluted/non fluted spike?

BB
 
hamtaro said:
What abt the spike? Perhaps we can determine it through the spike, is it a fluted or a non fluted spike.
Does Saxon/Meck/Strelitz has a fluted/non fluted spike?

BB
Click to expand...
Okay, I'm not trying to cause problems, but I've spent quite a bit of time in Adobe Photoshop examining these helmets, blown up as large as I can without losing all detail, and it still appears to me that the center of the wappen is perfectly circular, there is no hint of an oval about it. As for the spikes, they look smooth to me, not fluted.

zhead7ze.jpg


zhead26ss.jpg
 
Sometimes I err in the details, so please bear with me. Personally, I believe the helmet represents a Beamte of some kind. The front visor is squared and the chinscales gewölbt (vaulted). Unless the subject was a general, I can't see Sachsen Infanterie wearing this helmet (the visor shape rules out Train and the spike Artillerie). Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Strelitz did field Dragoner regiments, but we seem to agree the star is not Schwerin and the center Wappen not Strelitz.

I can't really tell whether those spikes are fluted or not, they just look uncommon (as does the shape of the helmet worn by the uniformed man standing.

Chas.
 
Chas: Is the front visor squared or is it the typical Saxon style that is sort of in between round and squared? The seated fellow appears to be wearing an EK2 on a combatant ribbon. If he were a government official of some sort I would expect to see the EK2 on a non-combat ribbon.

Interesting puzzle.

Reservist1
 
Hi R1:

I did consider the more angular nature of Sachsen visors, but this specimen really strikes me as squared. Perhaps it is merely glare, but the corner of the visor above the wearer's right ear appears to come to a discernible point.

Both uniformed men were awarded the EK2 for combatants, and this is where things become highly speculative. Possible rationalizations could be discharge and transfer for serious war wounds, etc., but I would rather not muddy the waters.

What about Schaumburg-Lippe? That might well be the heraldic Rose of Lippe at the center of the circular Wappen.

Chas.
 
Tony: I saw that you had bid on the photo. I hope you get it. As it stands right now from just looking at fuzzy enlargements on different computer monitors we are all just tilting at windmills.

R1
 
Tony & Kaiser said:
Personally, I prefer the more direct route than speculation :brave:

I bid on it.

If I get it, I'll post a 600 dpi scan.
Click to expand...
Great, Tony, we'll all hope you win it and can let us know! :P
 
At a minimum, the seated officer is saxon infantry or possibly train based on the cuffs. the standing officer is a little more problematic; he has swedish cuffs. If Tony identifies the plate as saxon when he gets the photo, I think Chas was right with Beamte. The only other possibility I could find with a saxon officer and a standard spike and swedish cuffs was a Nichtregimentierte Offizier Armee-Uniform.

Dave
 
So, Tony, not trying to rush you, but have you received this photo yet? I'm very interested in what you discover upon examing it closely. :-k
 
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