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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:03 pm 
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Sorry, never should have used the word experimental,since the design already exists. I should have described it as a different type of manufacturing. About the liner. It is held in by rivets,not stitching. I'll try to take a photo of the inside liner attachment.
I registered for the site, which sold the helmet in 2006. They replied that it takes up to 5 days to receive to complete.


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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:38 pm 
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Attachment:
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Ron,
Attached is a picture of the split rivet which holds in the liner.
Chuck


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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:53 pm 
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Just picked up this discussion tread. I noticed this helmet at the show too and snapped off a couple quick photos. I didn't really do a detailed forensic exam of the thing because, frankly, it it didn't occur to me that it might be fake. It was one-looker for me, but then again, I tend to be insufficiently critical sometimes. Plus, I wasn't about to spend $5k on the to buy it, so I wasn't looking at it with a potential buyer's degree of scrutiny. Still, my personal feeling about the piece is that it's probably original. With all this discussion, now I wish I could take a second look. It's certainly a very interesting helmet.

Mark D.


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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:01 am 
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Quote:
I didn't really do a detailed forensic exam of the thing


I keep telling you Mark you need to watch more TV!

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:26 am 
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Interesting that the cape and visor weren't machine sewn onto the dome, like the segments of the cape were. I wonder why a manufacturer would do that? :-k :-k

:D Ron

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:22 pm 
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Well, I got a response to my email to The Milshop in Germany that sold the filz JzP in 2006. Klaus Schwaiger,the owner sent this reply to my question as to some provenance or history of origin. See attached


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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 3:27 pm 
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Sorry that the scan is hard to read. It says that he purchased the helmet from a museum in Belgium in 2006. So maybe i have the one that was in the Brussels museum and is now in my collection.He states that it is 100% original. Still no photos.If anyone can verify that the Museum sold it to The Milshop, Please let me know.


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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 5:29 pm 
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http://www.klm-mra.be/klm-new/engels/ma ... tartpagina

This Museum is Federal State Property and Department of Defense !
They will never sell one item: not even a single uniformbutton. Even the dust on the old vitrines is State Property...

So please do forget about linking this item to this museum.

Francis


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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2014 6:48 pm 
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Francis,
I am not trying to do anything, except find out more information about this item. I do know that the same regulations apply to museum items in the U.S. They are government run and sell duplicate items and other donated items to provide room for new items.Read the email. He states that he purchased the item from a museum in Belgium. I did not make the statement.


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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:09 am 
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Quote:
So maybe i have the one that was in the Brussels museum and is now in my collection


That is an interesting possibility. 8) You know even the great Smithsonian Institution in the USA sold a bunch of items. I hope to go there in a month or so maybe I can ask about it?

V/R
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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:52 am 
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Having never worked in a European museum, I can't really comment on their collections, however, US museums as stated are constantly de-accessing artifacts due to deterioration, need for storage space (they'll get rid of artifacts that don't quite fit in with the focus of the museum) or just because of moves from one location to another. It's well worth the while of collectors to ask to see any stored items that are of interest and mention, "By the way, if you ever decide to de-access this, I'd be interested." for items you might want. It also helps to state that you're a collector who can actually store, preserve and care for the artifact. Of course, you often have to outbid other interested parties if they decide to sell, but sometimes one lucks out! :)

:D Ron

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2014 12:19 am 
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Joe,
That would be great. If you go there ,please see if you can find out anything about the Filz JzP. I would greatly appreciate your effort. Ron, if I decide to de-access I will get with you. Thanks for the interest.
Chuck


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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:38 pm 
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posking wrote:
Joe,
That would be great. If you go there ,please see if you can find out anything about the Filz JzP. I would greatly appreciate your effort. Ron, if I decide to de-access I will get with you. Thanks for the interest.
Chuck



Thanks very much for thinking of me, but it's not really on my 'hit list', I'm still building what I consider to be my basic collection.

:D Ron

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:46 pm 
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Yes there is never any ridicule in any of Adlers' posts, you need to reread his comments Chuck, he says he hopes that it is real but freely expresses his opinion about doubts. He also makes it clear that he realizes that it is just his opinion and with that proviso we all have a right to that in any discussion/debate which is the heart of democracy.

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:36 am 
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b.loree wrote:
just his opinion and with that proviso we all have a right to that in any discussion/debate which is the heart of democracy.


I think Canadian beer is over rated:)

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 10:47 am 
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If from belgian, then only from a private Museum. A Museum like Sanctuary Wood Museum (Hill 62). I remember a lot of fakes in the exibition and many put together helmets.

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 12:57 pm 
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I think we have kind of gotten off the subject. We were trying to determine the authenticity of my felz JzP. Now we are discussing the credibility of the Belgium Museum system.If anybody has some credible information about the helmet please let me know. The people that have seen and held it in there hands are more impressed with it than the people that would like to give an opinion based solely on there lack of information, concerning the helmet.I appreciate all of the positive input. There have been a few people who have claimed to have seen a second or maybe a third example.The third one in question could however be the one that I own and actually just another siting of the second one. Anyway, thanks to everyone for there input and happy collecting!
Chuck


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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:30 am 
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I agree with Adler i am pretty sure this helmet is fake i have seen it a lot of times in Kassel at the militariashow the helmet has a strange chemical smell it was indeed for sale by milshop who is also standing every year in Kassel this guy is selling a lot of fake items , i also visit the army museum in Brussel a lot of times and i have never seen such a helmet there.

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:42 pm 
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You know, I would have appreciated your evaluation and think that maybe you knew what you were talking about until you came up with that stupid statement about the chemical smell. This helmet smells of nothing but old musk.I can't comment about the Milshop owner. I have never met the man.As far as the museum, Ken said that maybe he saw it at a different museum but stated that he did see it in Europe, at a museum.The helmet came from a museum in Belgium, unless you want to accuse Klaus of not telling the truth.People are proven innocent until proven guilty.Why is it that without seeing this helmet, not one that you saw in Europe, that you can label it as fake.You obviously proved your your lack of knowledge by saying that it had a strong chemical smell.Also, Ken said that he had seen some of these helmets that were fake but this one did not have the same characteristics. Anyway, if you are not sure of what you speak, I would appreciate you not commenting on the subject. I would appreciate any credible comments and keep the museum pictures to yourself. We have already seen the display twice.


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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:00 pm 
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Posking- I have kept out of this one, I looked and held the helmet at SOS with your permission and will keep my opinion to myself.

However, every time some one posts on here that they do not like it, you come back and insult them and to keep their opinions to themselves. You have now insulted 2 very knowledgeable collectors that our great contributors to the forum and the hobby.

I know you want the helmet to be real, but let's keep it civil please!

As far as the pictures from the museum go, these are different then the others and I for one love to see them as they show many rare helmets.

Best

James

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:44 pm 
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Posking if you can't behave civil i am done talking to you , if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.


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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 5:52 pm 
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I have watched this thread with interest. I have not handled the helmet, and my knowledge of cavalry helmets is relatively limited. Therefore I have no opinion on its authenticity. Posking, you are not doing yourself any favors here. While nobody can claim to know everything, the members here and those who frequent this site probably represent the greatest body of knowledge concerning pickelhauben on the planet. I would suggest you review Adler's Collection thread before insulting and alienating him more than you already have. Aside from the considerable financial investment involved in assembling such a collection, the research, acquisition of knowledge and experience represent an equal or greater investment. And you come here begging for some of that painstakingly gained knowledge and behave badly when you don't like what you hear.
I collect firearms, mainly. I have owned prototypes and tool room experimentals, some very rare weapons. Those guns were like boats: the two happiest days of your life are the day you buy it and the day you sell it. I know you are desperate for your helmet to be authenticated and have other collectors beating a path to your door trying to shower you with gazillions of dollars to buy it, but don't hold your breath waiting. Unless some authenticating documentation or photographs surface, the jury will always be out. And if the helmet is so obscure nobody knows what it is, then it's merely a curiosity.
I suggest you take a "time out", and return with some courtesy and respect.
Consider your ways.
Steve

PS I would also suggest you refrain from using words like "stupid" when referring to other members' opinions. It just demeans you further.

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 7:13 pm 
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West front,
I said nothing concerning Adler. My only comment was that you stated that the helmet had a chemical smell. This shows me
that you are speaking of a different helmet. You are entitled to an opinion like everyone else. I merely resent that you label this helmet incorrectly. I have shown it to hundreds of people and absolutely NO ONE said anything like that. I never meant to question anyone's integrity only to bring out the fact that you must be speaking of a different helmet.


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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 12:02 pm 
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Westfront wrote:
I agree with Adler i am pretty sure this helmet is fake i have seen it a lot of times in Kassel at the militariashow the helmet has a strange chemical smell it was indeed for sale by milshop who is also standing every year in Kassel this guy is selling a lot of fake items , i also visit the army museum in Brussel a lot of times and i have never seen such a helmet there.

Image

Image

Image


I thought this post was worthy of a quote in case the OP decides to delete it as these are some of the best photos of the display at Brussels.
The argument that the helmet in question should not be compared to the one in Europe changes the playing field, now we are no longer discussing a helmet that there are three known examples of, but a unique helmet. While people are assumed innocent until proven guilty, artifacts are presumed dubious until they have good provenance. To me, it looked good until the hand stitching was pointed out. As far as smell, I do not place much in that other than the smell of fresh leather, musty smells can come quickly and chemical smells can be the result of someone trying to cover the musty smell of age. I picked up a nice Filtzhelm years ago, it smelled of perfume (or one could say "stank" of perfume).
Best
Gus

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 1:07 pm 
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Gus,
Thank you for the constructive feedback. I think that we are discussing two or more different helmets. The helmet that I own was purchased in 2006 and has been in a private collection in the U.S. since that time. The owner passed away in 2013 and I was able to purchase it from someone who purchased a large part of his collection.Since it has resided in the USA for almost a decade, it could not be the one that has been making the German shows.I apologize for some of my harsh replies to follow forum members comments.It just got to me, that statements were made that just didn't apply to this helmet,like chemical smell,etc. Ken,who I mentioned, who stated that he had seen this helmet at a museum and also stated that there were fakes that existed of this helmet. However, he told me that this example had characteristics that the fakes did not have.Anyway, I guess until period photos or documentation appear, the helmet will remain in question.Sorry again for whoever I upset.
Thanks,
Chuck


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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 3:15 pm 
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Years ago, I purchased a nice replica Flizhaube from Germany, as a replica. Its leather smells new and there is indeed a chemical smell to the felt. Aside from the plate and officer liner on an EM type helmet ("private purchase? :wink: ) it looks pretty good other than the chinstrap and what looks like copper cockades. i.e. the form is right.

Now you guys have me curious and I'm willing to do a little experiment with it: I have a 'wine cellar' ( actually a cement store-room under our front porch) that gets musty, but not moldy, in the summer. I'm going to place it in there and see how long it takes to get an aged smell. I'll report back when (if) it does or doesn't. I have enough authentic helmets to know what one smells like, so we'll see what happens. It might take all summer, but we'll see. :)

My question, can a new helmet take on that 'good aged Pickelhaube' smell that we all love? If so, can it be done quickly? (within a few months)

:D Ron

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 4:27 pm 
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Hey Ron,
I wear a felt hat 99% of the time I am outside, I go through one about every three years. A new felt hat can loose its "new hat smell" in a very short time, it all depends on what it is exposed to. I do not place much credit in the "how it smells" thought of dating an artifact. It will be interesting to hear how you come out with the test.
Best
Gus

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 7:20 pm 
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The problem with doing this sniff test on your hat is that you have to take a whiff of Gus too. I wouldn't describe that as a chemical stink – just a stink. :compress: :knob: :spam2:

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 10:31 pm 
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joerookery wrote:
The problem with doing this sniff test on your hat is that you have to take a whiff of Gus too. I wouldn't describe that as a chemical stink – just a stink. :compress: :knob: :spam2:

Thanks Joe, and all this time I thought you did not care, but you are lucky you have only met my "going to town hat" my work hat is a bit stronger:)

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Wed Mar 26, 2014 11:15 pm 
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Gus- is it blue and looks like a coal miners hat?

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:30 am 
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:sign7: I should train my dog to sniff out fakes, the nose knows! :P

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 Post subject: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:55 am 
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Just another excuse to visit his wine cellar more often... :-?
"I have to go and sniff "stinky"again !"
Francis


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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:06 am 
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Quote:
Gus- is it blue and looks like a coal miners hat?


I don't think it was from a coal mine but I think he used to be one of the original singers in the Village People. :wav:

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:21 am 
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Spiker wrote:
:sign7: I should train my dog to sniff out fakes, the nose knows! :P


Then don't take him to either Hollywood or D.C. LOTS of fakes in those places! Of course, DC might cause mental problems for your poor dog, because the fakes are REAL idiots... :wink:

:D Ron

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:34 am 
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joerookery wrote:
Quote:
Gus- is it blue and looks like a coal miners hat?


I don't think it was from a coal mine but I think he used to be one of the original singers in the Village People. :wav:

I was going to write a rude come back here, but I am so slow I will have to fall back on my best comeback "Oh yeah?"
James keeps giving me crap about my coal miners hat, the funny thing is it is really a coal miners hat, as for the Village People comment from Joe, I was int he big city a few years back, and a couple of chippies came up and asked "are you a cowboy?" I do not know why, but it really creeped me out. OK, I do know why, they were chippies.

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 11:32 am 
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Guten Tag Gentlemen,

Well, it seems I´ve missed this "spicy" discussion :D
I first though I was connected to the french forum because of the unusual heat of the argumentation here :D

I´am afraid to say we will never be able to prove the originality of this curious felt JzP helmet...Felt headgear is sadly known for the lot of fakes :cry: Great industrial production of felt fakes in the 70ties and 80ties, especially from Great Britain.....
But if this helmet is a fake, it´s a very dangerous well made one.... Telling from the picts, my first optical impression is quite a good one, but thinking more about it, I can´t see any logical argument to explain this special pattern.... Experimental helmet? IMO the only possible explanation, maybe because of better camouflage or weight reduction.... Only suppositions.... :-k

As french collectors always use to say, "when you have a doubt, there are no doubts anymore"...Especially at this price level [-(

However I am very curious to see the feedback on the french forum and I´ll soon start a discussion there!

Philippe

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2014 1:52 pm 
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Philippe, when you found the answers, maybe you can also take a look at this tropical hat. :-k

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Sat May 24, 2014 6:27 am 
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Ed,

Where did you find that?

V/R
Joe

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 4:57 am 
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joerookery wrote:
Ed,

Where did you find that?

V/R
Joe


:arrow: :arrow: :arrow: http://www.beck-militaria.de/index.php? ... =1&clang=1

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 6:25 pm 
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Thank you Ed. I don't like it at all. This one has some real inconsistencies with m15 type hardware and red numbers.

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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:30 am 
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Now you guys have me curious and I'm willing to do a little experiment with it: I have a 'wine cellar' ( actually a cement store-room under our front porch) that gets musty, but not moldy, in the summer. I'm going to place it in there and see how long it takes to get an aged smell. I'll report back when (if) it does or doesn't. I have enough authentic helmets to know what one smells like, so we'll see what happens. It might take all summer, but we'll see.  :)

Ron, how's the experiment going. I'm anxiously waiting for the result...

Concerning things coming from a museum, I can assure you that not everything in museums is original... Here are a few pics from a glass cabinet in the Passchendaele museum in Zonnebeke. This should be one of the most interesting museums in Belgium, but guess what they have in their collection... one of the well known (Brittish) fakes from the seventies...
I took these pictures in 2011 but never visited the museum again. Maybe this isn't on display anymore at this moment.

Adler


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Saksen fake 03.jpg
Saksen fake 03.jpg [ 1.66 MiB | Viewed 8382 times ]
Saksen fake 02.jpg
Saksen fake 02.jpg [ 1.19 MiB | Viewed 8382 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: SOS B Loree Filz JzP
PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:14 pm 
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I remember that a british dealer, Saxonia, had for sale a felt Kurassier helmet a few years ago.

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