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 Post subject: Landsturm Headgear
PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 9:11 am 
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I am starting this thread as a companion to Tony's outstanding Landwehr Shako Plate thread.

http://www.pickelhaubes.com/forum/viewt ... 41&start=0

Landsturm / Landwehr is a tough nut to crack ( at least for me). We know that prior to June of 1915 other types of headgear were issued.

The first type of headgear we are going to discuss is the Wachstuchmütze (oilcloth cap). It sports the Landwehr cross and the state cockade. I assume these 4 Landsturmer are Bavarian, as the pc was posted from Munchen. The cancellation is mostly blotted out by the unit stamp, but the year is clearly '14. The unit stamp is "S.B. over Landst. - Bat. Rosenheim". I think that is what the words are on their armbands also. Haven't gotten around to checking any references as to what color the uniforms are. They might be feldgrun? I have once seen a pc that had a picture of a similar type mutze, only it was constructed of cloth.

Every one please feel free to add pc pics or pics of Wachstuchmützen. After any additions or discussion I will move along to another type of headgear. Just an attempt to keep things from getting fragmented.

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Last edited by Wyliecoyote on Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri May 26, 2006 10:36 pm 
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At the beginning of the war and before, Landsturm were organized in Bns with zero service support. They were named for where they came from. For example this band came from Hannover 1.
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This should be early war because there were no Landsturm training requirements. These guys wore oilcaps and when they ran out old Landwehr shakos. Looking at the band they had no numerical collar dogs. Kraus single volume pg 288 says the landsturm started the war with just brigade numbers on their collar. This picture below shows men of a Landsturm unit from 37th Bde with a mixture of oilcaps and old style shakos.
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In both of these pictures the "leader" wears a haub. In the case of the band leader there are no accepted "landsturm" haubes so they are called landwehr?????
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Not all units wore "dogs", Gd Lansturm wore litzen.
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After the Bde numbers the number of Corps and Bn were both worn as of April 1915,

Some of the oilcapshad some sort of cloth top.
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Those Landsturm who did not have oilcaps or uniforms they had uniform marking...in this case arm bands to ensure they were not mistaken for Francs tirralier (sp) of 1871 style.
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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 12:19 am 
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joerookery wrote:
In both of these pictures the "leader" wears a haub. In the case of the band leader there are no accepted "landsturm" haubes so they are called landwehr


So why is he wearing a Reserve Pickelhaube with the EK on the tail feathers? Does that go back to the % rule of this much Reg + this much Reserve + this much Landwehr or Landsturm makes a unit?

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PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 2:37 pm 
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Quote:
So why is he wearing a Reserve Pickelhaube with the EK on the tail feathers?

Good question that I cannot answer. Bandmasters were different but
I think that like officers of the line they had to request movement betwween levels. So he could have been a reserve officer and requested transfer to the Landsturm due to age. He could have kept his original helmet?????? What else would he wear? It is a good question.

The % rule did not apply to Landsturm only Landwehr according to Busche.

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 Post subject: Adjutant
PostPosted: Sat May 27, 2006 3:50 pm 
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Joe,

he is the battalion Adjutant and not the Bandmaster.

It seems that any combination of Retired officer, Reserve, Landwehr, retired reserve or retired Landwehr officer could serve in any unit as formed at mobilisation or after.

And it is further highly probable that these guys would have worn the headgear and uniform of their last peacetime unit/Landwehr Bezirk.

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 8:39 am 
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Quote:
he is the battalion Adjutant and not the Bandmaster.


Goodness I've only looked at this a few thousand times so missing the sash is excusable?!!?!?!?!?
This has to be post mobilization right? So we went through no collar dogs, brigade number, corps number with bn number collar dogs in pretty rapid fashion.

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 Post subject: Wachstuchmütze on an old soldier
PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 4:12 pm 
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Hey Wyliecoyote, That's a nice Landsturm group photo you posted. It's interesting to see the guy kneeling with the shooting award is also wearing a "Kaiser Centenary" medal, any idea when the shot was taken?

Here's a closer shot of the only pic that I have of a Landsturm guy wearing a Wachstuchmütze. Unfortunatly I can't make out the number on his collar.

Image

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PostPosted: Sun May 28, 2006 10:07 pm 
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Wachstuchmützen with uberzug. I really like this pc because of the Hussar with Busby uberzug. Would love to have seen the busby minus the cover, looks like it is a pre-war model.


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PostPosted: Mon May 29, 2006 9:44 pm 
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Look how shiny these caps were! These one are unusually "perky". Does anyone have one or know someone who has one? I do not know of one in a collection and I have been looking for one for way longer than I want to admit. They are just gone.

Nice view of that odd Landsturm Litewka with single upper pocket too.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 3:49 pm 
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I have a Wachstuchmütze from Baden. Even if the cap looks good I have a problem with the cross on which is written "Mit god fur konig und vaterland". Normally it must be "Mit god fur fuerst und vaterland"...? In the book "Militarische kopfbedeckungen der kaiserzeit" from Reiner Herrmann on page 72 there is a picture from an oilcloth cap wearing a cross with the motto "konig" and from a shako wearing the motto "fuerst". Can somebody explain it?

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Image


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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 1:20 pm 
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This is a nice pc of Otto's that I harvested from a thread he authored.

This chap is wearing the "Kaiser Centenary" medal as was a soldier in the first pc. One very interesting thing I noticed about this fellow is that on his wachstuchmutze are not only the State cockade under the southern arm of the Landwehr Kreuz, but also a National cockade above the northern arm of the kreuz.

So it appears there were at least 2 variations of insignia display on this type of mutze.

Image

Must be a smaller Landwehr Kreuz to be able to fit the cockade?

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:38 am 
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George I apologize for moving backwards but we are fixing Janet's scrapbook room (again) and having counters and murphy beds installed so I couln't get to my postcards. I have a series of questions / thoughts that lead back to the original hats.

First for your viewing pleasure a landsturm hat quiz type picture.
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I'm sure I missed stuff.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:49 am 
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The next issue is collar dogs. There are MANY types. These first guys have none.
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Then there seem to be those with some sort of verticle line.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:06 pm 
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Then you get to ornamental dogs. Initially the Landwehr Bns were supposed to have their Bde number in large numbers on their collars.
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This next picture from the Kostel collection shows no number on the coat but one on the collar.
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Hoch Der Landsturm!
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:17 pm 
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The "verticle line" I think is an unterofficier bar for the greatcoat per Sommers V2 pg 732. 2 bars would be Feldwebel.
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Again Bde number only for the Landsturm of Hildesheim..
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:09 pm 
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After Bde collar dogs, the dogs starting in April 1915, differentiated the Korps and Bn. number. You have to know both to track down which unit it is. For example this guy is from XIX Korps bn # 16. which is Ldst. I-Btl. Plauen. The Busche manuscript has a complete listing of unit numbers by corps.
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There were many variants of this combination with the pcture above being the standard. You see Bn number followed in a line with Korps number like this wonderfully clear picture Chas allowed me to use.
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You see the reverse of this variant.
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You can see from the examples you have both big and small numbers used for Bn. Then there is the corps only variant. There is some thought that this might be Landsturm Pioneer. I do not know.
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I do not know when/if Lansturm stopped wearing dogs.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 3:48 pm 
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The next piece of headgear is the pickelhaube. In 1915 the Landsturm were issued pickelhauben, and that same year the Landwehr Kreuz in green was authorized for Landsturm use on the uberzug. Below the kreuz (where one would normally find a Regimental number on Regular Armee & Reservist uberzugen), the Korps number in Roman numerals, above the Battalion number in Arabic numerals were found, also in green. This was done in a similar manner as on the collar dogs, posted above.

This next pc shows examples of Prussian Landsturm from the top right wearing a wachstuchmutze with cloth cover, wachstuchmutze no cover, and pickelhauben with plain uberzugen. The sillouettes of the Prussian wappen can be seen under the uberzug. This pc is undated.

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A pc from the Lille Citadel, undated, of French POW's being led by Landsturmer with pickelhauben, one with cloth wachstucmutze. Check out the Hussar to the right.

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I don't have any pc's of my own of Landsturm troops with their type marked uberzugs. Anyone who does, PLEASE, feel free to add pics.

:help:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2006 10:31 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:30 am 
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I'm toying with the idea of doing an article on the meaning of all those landsturm marks including a chart linking number like this XI34 to a unit.

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Last edited by joerookery on Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:21 pm 
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The next style of headgear is the Feldmutze or Kratzen, a soft, visorless cap worn by enlisted men. They displayed small cockades on the front of the hat, National or Reichs on the crown or top, State or Landes cockade below on the cap band. In the case of Landsturm, the State cockade also could include a Landwehr Kreuz in the inner ring. The top or crown of the cap for Landsturm was generally feldgrau, with piping and the cap bands in the color of the occupational specialty for example red bands and piping for Infantry, black bands and red piping for Artillery and Pioneers, green bands and green piping for Jagers. At some point feldgrau bands were made to cover the bands to reduce recognition by allied troops. These were issued up until July, 1917, when the both the crowns & bands were produced in feldgrau.

These first two Landsturm troops are from the 43rd Brigade prior to April 1915. The state cockades are of the Landsturm type.

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These troops are from the XIX Korps, 17 Landsturm Btn, the sign says 18 Korporalshaft, 4. Komp., Landsturm Inf. Btn Scheeberg, 2 Zt.Zwickau, 1916

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:30 pm 
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Per Wyle's request, here are some enlisted sew-on, brad-backed and officer's cap cockades. The Hanseatic example is not a reserve/Landsturm version. It is just shown as a comparison.

Chip


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 Post subject: Really late to the blog
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:01 pm 
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Sorry to add this solate in the link . but the officer at the beginning of this thread ,could he just activated or transfered in from another reservre or regugular regiment ?
Mark


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 8:29 pm 
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Mark

Participation is welcome, glad to see some one else besides Joe & I are interested in this subject.

The feldmutze also came in a version that had an added on leather visor. I am unsure if it was named differently or also known as a feldmutze. I do not have a pic of any worn by Landsturm.

I have 4 pc's that are from the same Landsturm Battalion, the first two I picked up separately. The second 2 were in the back of a small pc scrapbook I bought as empty. Strange coincidence I only recently realised. They are from 2. Ldst.-I.-Ers.-Btn. Hamburg (IX Krp.28 Btn.) Their mutzen display the Landes kokorde of the Hanseatic City of Hamurg. An example can be found in Chip's photo, top row left.

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Next type of headgear is the Dienstmutze. It consisted of a black leather visor, for Landsturm the crown was generally well shaped, stiffened and feldgrau or graugrun in color. Utilized the Reich & Landes cockades and cap bands in the same manner as the feldmutze. Usually worn by OR's behind the lines, worn in the feld mostly by NCO's and Officers. There was also a soft version, I believe the type is refered to as crusher type. The next two pc's show members definitely behind the lines, with exampes of both feld / dienstmutzen.

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This last pc is of 2 Landsturm guards and Russian POWs, one with oilcloth cap. They are wearing Brigade collar dogs that I am unable to read.

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Image

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Please feel free to particate, correct errors, or just add your 2 cents.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 7:37 am 
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here is a Württemberg M10 Krätchen.

Image

Image

And the "crusher" pattern you mentioned George, on a Model 1910 Württemberg Officer's Medical Schirmmütze.

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Image

I have Dunkelblau examples as well, but these are my favorite wartime examples. T

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 Post subject: Fres in from show today
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:36 am 
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Ok this I will put nice tony pics one day but this is what I picked up today


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Image

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g196/ ... G_0327.jpg

I need some info on this piece ,as does the person I bought it from he was curious as to who used it and more about the cap.He is very knowlagable about Imperial Headgear but this he had questions about ,like the red band on top the officer's type cockade.
I would just like more info on this thought i would post pics for this link.
Also please info on keeping it in good condition as it is oilskin or leather ,very thin leather.
Mark
PS see tony there are shows up here in the north ,I was at one today and met Brian and Margo.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:39 am 
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Mark:

With the red piping, my thoughts are that your cap is actually an officer's or senior nco's Ledermutze for the Kraftfahr-Bataillon. Can you check inside and see if there had been slots where a cockade had been under the landwehr cross (which is typically not sewn onto a cap)?

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 Post subject: can do
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 12:21 pm 
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I will do that this after noon as i plan on taking a few more pics of inside anyway.
MArk


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I echo what Dave said. As well, the EK is off a Pickelhaube chicken, not a Landsturm EK which were always sewn on at the tips of the EK arms. However, this is great cap. Way to go!

I am not really sure it is in fact Kraftfahr, only one row of red piping? T

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 Post subject: I can not get into behind the front band liner is very delic
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 10:56 pm 
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The cockades is an Officer's but I can not get into thhe rear of it . I see what you mean about the cross and did notice it when I bought it ,but it came that way and I don't want to do anything but display this piece .
Where the cross sits there are no other holes.
The person i bought this from brought a Leib hussars Reserve mutze EM Private purchase .the only question I had was the NCO style cockade it was larger and flter then i am normal to seeing ,sorry no pics.The prussian cockade was the typical resrve style Prussian one.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:06 am 
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Hi,
I tried reading the picture on the first site of this thread.There is a picture with some soldiers that bears some lines on,it is too hard to read to not make it a mere guess.All I can read well is the word Feldwebel and Untffz thrice.
Then there is the postcard,again the scan makes it hard to read,but this is what I understand of it


Recipient: Johann Maier
.....I also want to tell you that we leave Munich on Tuesday.We are then heading for enemy territory....Thanks to god I am all well,there is a serious time about to come for me.Best Wishes for your Mrs. Mother. Fare Well...

Best

AR


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 Post subject: My Landstrum Cap
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:39 am 
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I have a couple oof quetions should I find the proper cross for the piece ? Why is the officers style nation cockade on th bottom? Should it not be a state? I have a pic and grouping to a Kraftfahr but he has a Felt topped headgear.
Mark


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 Post subject: Another Oilskin for sale
PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:26 pm 
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/this is the item number for the Oilskin Landstrum cap
Code: 29195 It is listed under headgear at regimentals .uk .
this was a reference sent by the fellow that I purchased the my landwher cap from ,he is now on the forum.
Mark
PS his call sign is Stahlhelm


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:06 pm 
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Here is aguy from Landsturm XIX 20 -- Ldst.-1st Btl. Rochlitz formed August 1915, with a spikeless helmet. Also he has his numbers on the overcoat. Size of overcoat proves one size fits all.
Image
Image

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:40 pm 
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I love this thread guys and have learned much. Please keep it going. Joe I believe that the picture above confirms reports of alien/Martian involvement in WW1. That little guy must have belonged to the Extra Terrestrial Corps!!! I swear those ears are pointed. He looks like the little Martian that used to get Fred Flintstone in trouble! Brian


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A close up of the Uberzug. A dealer marked this bavarian landwehr on the back.

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Last edited by joerookery on Sat Mar 03, 2007 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Here is a very unusual one.
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Here we have a picture of three Korporalschaften from second company second platoon. Finding platoon designations seems very rare. It gets better though, because these landsturm guys are going to RJR56. It also refers to them as Landsturm Jungens. Now we all know that Landsturm included those who were between the ages of 17 and 20 and indeed this picture shows a large group of very young men. Not sure I remember seeing young landsturm guys brought together for inclusion in an RJR.

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This picture of the helmeted staff shows three different kinds of pickelhaube. Most interesting to me is that the senior guy has a landwehr cross, the others do not.

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Joe

I like the uncommon Y straps he has. Does any one know what type they are?

Geo

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Wyliecoyote wrote:
I like the uncommon Y straps he has. Does any one know what type they are?


George you are going to laugh; that is a bread bag strap.

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:laughing3:

Yup, I am laughing, necessity is the mother of invention, what ever works in the field.

I came across this undated pc of a Landsturm NCO w/ fabric wachstuchmutze. Hard to tell for sure, but this mutze looks like it has piping.

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Wyliecoyote wrote:

Yup, I am laughing, necessity is the mother of invention, what ever works in the field.

Hey George,
The most common use of the bread bag strap was to support the ammo pouches when the tornister was not worn, I do not remember seeing a photo of a bread bag on the strap. also, in the book "The German at Beaumant Hamel" there is a translation of a battle order telling that the bread bag strap was also used as a lanyard for the P08.
Gus

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 Post subject: Re: Bavarian?
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zipperheads9 wrote:
Joe is he not wearing Bavarian buttons on the M1910 unic? I can not make out the bukle .

Hi MArk,
I think that you are right, those are Bavarian buttons, the buckle would be difficult to tell from a Prussian, as the only differance is the motto.
Gus

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Not headgear but a nice armband from Trawnik,
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Zippy alerted me to this postcard. A picture of the band Ldst.-1-Btl. Wetzlar (XVIII 6). Taken in Antwerp in Jan 1916. (note collar #'s) What has my interest is the uberzug #. I am actually building an article on Uberzugs and this one brings up an interesting thought. Infantry regiment #'s seem easy. but in Jan 1916 these guys;
Had a number.
It was their Landsturm Bn # in the corps.
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joerookery wrote:
this one brings up an interesting thought. Infantry regiment #'s seem easy. but in Jan 1916 these guys; Had a number. It was their Landsturm Bn # in the corps.


This is always the case as far as I know. For Line Regiments the Überzug number will match the shoulder straps, except of course if the regt was cyphered, for Reserve the number under the "R" on the Überzug will match the number on the straps, and even for for Landwehr the number under the "L" also matches the number on the collar.

But like the Line and Reserve Jäger Battalions, the Landsturm were also organized in Battalions attached to Armee-Korps, so the on M1915 Überzug the Battalion number under the EK matches the Battalion (large bottom) number on the collar.

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joerookery wrote:
Did the Landwehr units all have numbers on the collar?

As far as I know, only Landsturm wore numbers on the collar. Everyone else, including Landwehr, wore their unit affiliation on the straps, unless they were Garde of which many were blank. I have a lot of photos of L Überzug, the numbers are always on the straps.

joerookery wrote:
So just wondering outloud.... did the 22JR have the same marking on the Uberzug as PB22? Then we have
L, R, cross, E. Then we have corps markings.


Yes, in theory, you could not tell a IR from a PB. Don't forget the Roman Numerals and I saw a photo once with an "MD" Überzug. God knows what that was, I kick myself for not buying it! :angry4:

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 Post subject: Gus
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Hey Gzu
Prussia wore crown buttons and Bavaria wore the Lion rampant ,as I remember . As for the buckle In true Fuest takes more space the Gott Mitt Uns.
Mark


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Hi Zippy,
In Johan Sommers'book there is a photo of a Bav buckel that has the same arch in the lettering as the Prussian buckel, looking at the photo, I get the impression that the inscription ends with a "T" and that would be logical to have a Bav buckel with the type of buttons on his tunic
Gus

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joerookery wrote:
I am actually building an article on Uberzugs

Hi Joe:

I don't mean to steal your thunder, and I have a few Überzüge (I think this is the correct plural) which I will be happy to contribute to your article. However, it is worth mentioning that Tony has provided rather an excellent overview on the subject at Kaiser's Bunker.

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/pt/uberzug.htm

It's well worth a look.

Chas.

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Well that's well done! Great job Tony! :thumb up: It's brand new too. It wasn't there the other day when I actually looked. There are some really nice pictures there. The MD helmet cover it is a new one.

I will still drive on with mine. I am in no rush, but I have a different twist. What is really great about Tony's article is that it is not in any reference book to that detail that I'm aware of.

This week is the start of college for our daughter and I will get some relief in my office from the piles of stuff that Janet has dropped in here. We had contractors build her a scrapbook room this last week. So she now has all the drawers and counter space she wants. :hello1:

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joerookery wrote:
It's brand new too. It wasn't there the other day when I actually looked.


Actually, it was done a while ago, but I forgot to upload the new index page. duh. :tard: At any rate, your articles tend to be more detailed than mine Joe, I read them all and enjoy them. So they compliment each other. Mine are more the "quick reference" catagory. T

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