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 Post subject: A mysterious photo from China
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:27 am 
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Hello,

this is my first post in this very interesting forum and I hope to learn a lot here especially about uniforms of the "Schutztruppe" and "east asians units".

One or two years ago I bought this mysterious photo, which is showing a german unit in China (probably in Kiautschou). Note the headgear and equipment (especially the ammo belt) of those soldiers. What kind of unit could it be??

The headgear looks similar but not identical with those of the Schutztruppe in Africa. Also of interest is the type of wearing the ammo belt. Like the "Landespolizei" (police unit) in German Southwestafrica. As I know did the fifth company (cavalary unit) of the third marine infantry also worn their ammo belts across their chests but I can not imagine that those soldiers are members of the fifth company. Didn´t they wear the same headgear like the others companies of the third marine infantry, I think so.

On the backside is written that the picture was taken during Admiral Günter von Krosigk took a speech to the company.

As I know was Admiral Günter von Krosigk around 1910 to 1913 Chief of the East Asian Cruiser Squadron, so the picture must be taken around these period 1910 to 1913.

Could they be reservists??

I would be very grateful for any idea or help!

All the bests

Leutwein

Image

Image

Image

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:46 am 
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Welcome, Leutwein! Unfortunately I'm not that good when it comes to overseas troops, but I will try.

I found this web page http://www.sacktrick.com/igu/germancolo ... summer.htm that shows the uniform of the 1st East Asian Infantry Regiment. The uniform doesn't match yours exactly, the collars are different and the troops are wearing their hats differently, but perhaps there is some relationship there.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:11 am 
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Hello Liongules,

thanks for your help!

But those soldiers of your link were/ are members of the East Asian Expedition Corps, who took part on the Boxer War (1900/1901). They worn a straw hat but the soldiers on my mysterie pic wear a hat which is very similar with the African hat, which was called "Südwester".

I put a picture of a member of the East Asian Expedition Corps and I hope you can see the differences between the caps of my mysterie pic and those of the East Asian Expedition Corps.

Best wishes

Leutwein

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:07 pm 
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BTW here is some info too with pictures of the hats/uniforms used during the mobilization against the Boxer rebellion

http://www.jadu.de/jaduland/kolonien/asien/boxer/text/dm/index.htm

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 1:41 pm 
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Hello Leutwein,
I would not think that these troops would be reservists, as their uniforms and equipment are very well matched, and usually when one sees photos of reservists, they have poorly matched uniforms and equipment. Although that could be something seen more in wartime photos.
A very interesting photo.
Best wishes
Gus

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:16 pm 
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leutwein wrote:
Hello Liongules,

thanks for your help!

But those soldiers of your link were/ are members of the East Asian Expedition Corps, who took part on the Boxer War (1900/1901). They worn a straw hat but the soldiers on my mysterie pic wear a hat which is very similar with the African hat, which was called "Südwester".

I put a picture of a member of the East Asian Expedition Corps and I hope you can see the differences between the caps of my mysterie pic and those of the East Asian Expedition Corps.

Best wishes

Leutwein

Image


Leutwein,

I agree completely, the soldiers in your photo are not dressed like the East Asian Expedition Corps, I meant to say that they were similar. The hats are very different and worn in a different manner.

Perhaps this group, whoever they are, obtained their hats from the same maker who made hats for the troops in Africa?????

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:19 pm 
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Hello Leutwein: In studying your second photograph the portions of the rifle visible next to the soldier in the foreground apear more like a British Enfield than a Gew. 88 or Gew. 98. If that is the case the troops would be from the British Empire, probably Australia.

Is it possible to post a larger image of the photograph which may reveal more detail to positively identify the rifle?

Reservist1


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:33 pm 
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reservist1 wrote:
Hello Leutwein: In studying your second photograph the portions of the rifle visible next to the soldier in the foreground apear more like a British Enfield than a Gew. 88 or Gew. 98. If that is the case the troops would be from the British Empire, probably Australia.

Is it possible to post a larger image of the photograph which may reveal more detail to positively identify the rifle?

Reservist1


Leutwein

I agree with R1, please enlarge those 3 men at the end of the row, especially their rifles. I think these men are Austro-Hungarians, and those rifles are Mannlichers.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:37 am 
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Hello,

at first thanks for all your help!

I hope these images are of high quality to study them.

I can not believe that this group were members of the British Empire, because their commander wrote the note on the backside and it is in german. Unfortunately he didn´t notice some informations about his company.

Were Austro-Hungarians (infantry troops) stationed in China?? But the medal bar of their commander is the german style and Austrians didn´t mount their decorations in that kind of style (also called prussian).

Best wishes

Leutwein

Image

One pic of their commander (I hope you can see the bar, which is mounted in the german or prussian style.)

Image


Detail of the rifles

Image

and a detail of their hats (those objects on their hats looks like flaming grenade or something like that)

Image

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:51 am 
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I hope this qualtiy is good enough 8)

If not, I have to say: How can I put larger pics?

The lower object could be a state cockade.

Image

another pic of their hats

Image

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:47 am 
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Leutwein: Thank you for the enlarged images. The rifles are definitely British Enfields. Here is a photograph of the butt portion of a Lee Enfield rifle. Note the shape of the pistol grip, long wrist area, metal band at the rear of the receiver and the magazine. All of these features match the rifles in your photos.

Image

The leather ammunition bandoliers and hats are very similar to the patterns worn by Australian troops during the early part of the 20th century. Perhaps one of the forum members who is well versed in British empire uniforms can provide more definitive information on the specific nationality of the troops in the photographs.

Reservist1


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:40 pm 
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I tried to enlarge the photos on my computer and they're very fuzzy, but that looks to me like the Australian army rising sun badge above the cockade on the hats.

Image

But there appears to be very German looking embroidery on the shoulder straps, and the officer on the horse appears to have German officer's shoulder straps too.

Australia did have naval forces in China for the Boxer Rebellion in 1901, but I can't find anything about army troops.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:08 pm 
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reservist1 wrote:
Leutwein: Thank you for the enlarged images. The rifles are definitely British Enfields. Here is a photograph of the butt portion of a Lee Enfield rifle. Note the shape of the pistol grip, long wrist area, metal band at the rear of the receiver and the magazine. All of these features match the rifles in your photos.

Image
Reservist1


R1

Looks like you nailed it. Any chance you have a pic of the left side of the stock and the magazine bottem?

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 2:58 pm 
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Quote:
Any chance you have a pic of the left side of the stock and the magazine bottem?



Here is the left side of a No.1 Enfield. Sorry, no photo of the bottom of the magazine.

Image

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:37 pm 
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Thanks R1!

Were these charger or en bloc clip loaded? I was wondering as I always thought the Lee-Enfield was charger loaded, but the magazine second from left of the enlarged pics looks like there was an openeing in the bottem of the magazine, like a Mannlicher or Gew 88. Could be my pc too!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:59 pm 
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The magazine is detachable and has a capacity of 10 cartridges. The small lever in front of the trigger is the magazine release. In normal practice the magazine was left in the rifle and loaded with chargers. On the No.1 Mk1 variation the charger guide is a two piece unit with the right half attached to the bolt head. On all later No's. and Mk's the charger guide is a fixed bridge on the receiver. Ammunition was supplied in 5 round chargers.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:01 pm 
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Thanks for your help! I´m very confused about those men who are wearing the australian uniforms. :o

What could been the reason for that?? I can only say that their commander (on the horse) was german, because he wrote the notes on the backside. Also I can say that the picture must be taken around 1911 because "Admiral von Krosigk" was from 1910 to 1912 chief of the East Asian Crusader Squadron.

Very mysterious! Any ideas?

Best wishes

Leutwein

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:01 am 
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They could be the Shanghai Volunteer Corps. :)

Numerous goodwill visits were made by the East Asiastic Squadron to Shanghai.Waldersee first deployed to there as well in 1900.

Nationalties wore there own uniforms,these look like the British Company.There was also a Light Horse section.

Here's some members of the American Mounted Detachment 1917 as well:

http://digarc.usc.edu/impa/controller/v ... m2700.html


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 8:13 am 
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Thanks a lot Peter h for your comment and I think you are right!

Those are members of the "Shanghai Volunteer Corps" :lol:

But I think that they are germans and not british Volunteers. Because their commander wrote the note on the backside of this photo and I can´t believe that a german was commanding british soldiers.

Also I found in a book that the german volunteers worn a slouch hat like the members of the african colonies, as we can see on this picture.

And I saw on a period photo that the german volunteers (around 1900) used also the British Enfields. That photo must be taken between 1899 and 1901. But the volunteer of that picture wore a different uniform and a tropical helmet!

The mystery is solved :D Thanks to all!

All the best

Leutwein

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:48 pm 
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leutwein wrote:
And I saw on a period photo that the german volunteers (around 1900) used also the British Enfields. That photo must be taken between 1899 and 1901. But the volunteer of that picture wore a different uniform and a tropical helmet!



Could you post that photo here too, please?



I'm curious to know what the badge is above the cockade on the hats, I thought it might be the badge of the SVC, but when I Googles it it looked quite different (see about a quarter of the way down this page = http://student.science.nus.edu.sg/~scip ... anghai.htm )

This is a very interesting thread, thanks for starting it.
Cheers
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:42 pm 
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I think I've found the badge on the hats, a SVC badge is shown on this page - http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/5047/SHANGFLG.html

This one looks more like the one in our photo, being a brass badge with a scroll underneath it.

Does anyone know anything more about the German contingent in the SVC, when they were formed, when they were disbanded, strengths etc?

Cheers
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 Post subject: Shanghai Volunteer Corps Badge
PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:20 pm 
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There were different badges worn by the various units in the Shanghai Volunteer Corps (SVC). The following badge was worn by a doctor assigned to the American company. The actual size of the badge, without cloth backing, is 1.4 inches (35.5mm) wide by .880 inch (22.3mm) high. Below the badge is a portion of the SVC Mobilization Manual listing the units in the corps as of 1910.

Image

Image

While the above badge is different than the one on the hats in the photo in question, it is quite possible that each unit in the SVC wore a distinctive badge instead of the generic SVC insignia.

Reservist1


Last edited by reservist1 on Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:51 am 
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Hello,

here is the picture of Reinhold Holtz, who was a member of SVC around 1899! Look at the shoulderboards! I can see a crown and the letter "H" (?). For what could they stand for?

The picture was taken in Shanghai!


Image


Here a Detail of the tropical helmet.

Image

And another detail of the Insignia:

Image

and at least a detail of the shoulderboard:

Image


The insignia on the tropical helmet looks like the one on the website of chrispaulodale:

http://student.science.nus.edu.sg/~scip ... anghai.htm


Best wishes


Leutwein

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:18 pm 
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Thank you both for you excellent input.

The Mobilisation manual is very interesting in listing two German companies, thank you Reservist.

The 1899 photograph is likewise very interesting, thank you Leutwin. He appears to wear a British tropical helmet, with the badge as you say, British gaiters and a German dark blue infantry tunic. Yes, it's possibly an "H" on the shoulder strap (as far as I know Kuerassier Regt Nr 6 was the only regualr German army unit to wear an "H" monogram?), very difficult to tell... it doesn't look similar to any imperial German shoulder strap that I know of. Can anyone else make a guess?

The rifle looks very like a British Lee Enflield, though the bayonet knot looks very German...

Anyone else got any thoughts on this amazing photo?

Cheers
Chris

PS I just found this...

"At Shanghai the Europeans built the so-called Shanghai Volunteer Corps (S.V.C.) under British control. Max Hey as an enthusiastic bicyclist, encouraged the formation of a Customs Cyclist Company (C.C.C.) as part of the S.V.C.! This company was wearing British style uniforms made of local khaki fabric and Australian styled hats, the guns and side arms were supplied by the British Army...."

...description of the uniforms of the SVC on the excellent Austro-Hungarian Army website in a biography of Maximillian Hey ( http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/biog/hey.htm ) it also includes photogrpahs of Hey in SVC uniform.

This description of the hats as "Australian styled" makes sense as the Australians worn hats with the left side pinned up (as seen in the original photo), while the Germans (in the Schutztruppe, Landespolizei and East Asian formations) usually pinned up their hats on the right.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:04 pm 
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chrispaulodale wrote:
Yes, it's possibly an "H" on the shoulder strap


Could be an "N"? Leib-Dragoner-Regt. (2. Großherzog-hessisches) Nr.24
(Darmstadt) XVIII Armee Korps

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:34 am 
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Tony & Kaiser wrote:
Could be an "N"? Leib-Dragoner-Regt. (2. Großherzog-hessisches) Nr.24
(Darmstadt) XVIII Armee Korps


Hi Tony,
Yes, that a possibility though the crown doesn't seem to match the crown of Dragoon Regt 24. Also I would expect the tunic to then have Swedish style cuffs?
Cheers
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:57 am 
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The rifle in the photo appears to be a British Lee Metford No1. MKII.

The following pages from the SVC Mobilization Manual list the duties assigned to the German company upon mobilization. An Addition and Amendments sheet to the manual dated June 1913 indicates that the address listed in (c) is to be changed from 12a Kiangse Road to 9a Hankow Road.

Image

Reservist1


Last edited by reservist1 on Thu Sep 18, 2008 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:02 am 
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Chris

"This description of the hats as "Australian styled" makes sense as the Australians worn hats with the left side pinned up (as seen in the original photo), while the Germans (in the Schutztruppe, Landespolizei and East Asian formations) usually pinned up their hats on the right'.


The Australian slouch hat worn at that time (1899-1901)had the brim on the right side.The Defence Act of 1903 that established the Australian Army set that the hat be turned up on the left side.I think this was due to mounted troops wearing their ammunition bandolier over their right shoulder,meaning their rifle was slung over the left side.

Peter


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:36 pm 
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Thanks Peter, for your clarification there. But I think "Leutwin" had dated this slouch hat photo at around 1910-12, therefore after the 1903 Act putting them on the left. Is that correct?

Curious that they changed from right to left in 1903 though, thanks for the info.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:58 am 
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yes thats right! As you can see on the backside there is a notice of "S. Exez. Admiral von Krosigk". I have marked it! From 1909 Günther von Krosigk was a (in german) "Konteradmiral (the lowest admiral rang). From 1912 von Krosigk was a "Vizeadmiral" and chief of the East Asian Cruiser Squadron (until 1913)!

So the picture must be taken in that period of 1910 and 1913!

Best wishes

Leutwein


Pic of the backside:

Image

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:26 am 
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Thanks entirely to you guys, I've added a page on my website ( http://www.germancolonialuniforms.co.uk/ scroll down the main page and it's under "RELATED TOPICS OF INTEREST") on these German troops in the Shanghai volunteer corps. All the information and illustrations are based on what's been posted here. Please let me know if you spot any errors or have more info to add.

Cheers
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:22 am 
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... and there's another photo of the German Co of the SVC at the Bundesarchiv here-

http://www.bild.bundesarchiv.de/archive ... 51/?search[view]=detail&search[focus]=1

Taken in 1913, they appear to be wearing the same uniforms as in Leutwin's original post.

Cheers
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 2:54 am 
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Found these on ebay,Shanghai again

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