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 Post subject: Function of Bayonet Knots And Sword Knots???
PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 4:23 pm 
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What were the function of Bayonet Knots and Sword Knots?

Were these just a form of ID, so if the soldier or Officer was killed, it would be easier to identify the Regiment he came from??

Sort of similar to dog tags??


It does not look like when the soldier or Officer used the bayonet or sword, the knot was swinging from the bayonet or sword:


And exactly what nook on the belt were these knots attached to???


Were the bayonet and sword knots retired after the M1915 Blus uniform was issued at the very end of September, 1915????


Also, does anyone have a Master List of the colors used in these knots???

Bayonet knot:


Hmm--sort of looks like it just tied around the Bayonet holder (or frog) :unsure: :

Image

Reserve (R.I.R. 216) soldier, M1910 Uniform; old M1895 Ammo pouches:

Image


You can see the bayonet knot plainly here:

Image




But some Reserve Infantry did have the newer ammo M1910 pouches:

R.I.R. 202 soldier, M1910 Uniform; M1910 Ammo Pouches:

Image


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:16 pm 
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Hey Gamburd
The bayonet knot (Troddel) evolved from the sword knot, which was originally used to tie the sword to the user's hand, so that it would not be lost if he had it knocked from his grip.
The Germans attached the Troddel to the frog, the Austrians attached it to a loop on the bayonet. The basic colours can be remembered with the phrase "Wir rauchen gern Brazil" for WeiƟ, Rot, Gelb, Blau.
This is a base four system of counting with out a zero, White being one, red two, yellow three and blue four, the stem is the Battalion counter, and the crown and slider the counter for the company, so a white stem with white slider and crown is battalion I, 1st company, if you have a red stem with a blue slider and crown z.b. then you have battalion II 8th company (the 8th company is the 4th company in the second battalion.
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Gus

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 5:23 pm 
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Here is an interesting photo, making me wonder if the Troddeln were changed when a soldier was moved from on company to another, there are several Troddeln visible in the photo, and most appear to had dark sliders and crown with light stems, but the fellow kneeling on the extreme left has a Troddel that has a dark stem and light slider and crown. Given that these fellows are suppose to be from the same Korporalschaft, they would be in the same company, and judgeing by the Troddel, the fellow on the left is not even in the same Battalion.
Image
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Last edited by Gustaf on Sun Jan 18, 2009 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2009 6:07 pm 
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Here is a thread unter uniforms that has a visual of the knots thanks to Joe
http://pickelhaubes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2900
These colours are correct, many of the charts out there have errors in them.
Gsu

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:55 pm 
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Thanks for the info too! BTW, I just remembered a colorized picture of one of the ominous GMGA units I have shows their Troddeln to be all white (the original b/w picture most have shown a bright color, yellow at least).


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:15 am 
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Thank you Gus and Joe for all this great information about the Bayonet Knots.



I don't know much about historical guns like the Gewehr 98 or uniforms, so bear with me please.

So, as the photos I posted show, the bayonet knot was not attached to bayonet when the bayonet was fixed to the gun, right??? :-k


So, the Bayonet Knot was used in a similar fashion as the Officer's sword knot, i.e., to secure the bayonet, when wielded like a knife, to the soldier's hand??



So, there was a special loop on the soldier's belt (the so called "frog") that the bayonet holder was clapsed to and hung from??


And you say the Bayonet Knot was attached to the frog.

So, it looks like from the photo I posted that the Bayonet Knot was wrapped around and tied to this loop or clasp.




Was this loop or clasp (i.e., the frog) made out of metal??


From the photos I have, it is just real difficult to see that side left hip area.


A source says the bayonet was frogged to the belt and secured to the carrier of the M98 'short spade' on the uniform of a Fusiler Guards Regiment Unteroffizier.


How was the bayonet exactly conjoined to the soldiers' belt itself???

A hook? A metal clasp? A leather loop??

Image


Also, if anyone has any photos of the frog on the belt (replica photos are fine) and how the bayonet was attached to the belt, I would like to see them please.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 1:28 am 
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Hello Gamburd,
I will try to hit all the questions, first, the frog is just a leather open bottom pocket with a belt loop, the bayonet scabbard is held in the frog by different methods, the german scabbard had an oblong tab that would go through a slot in the frog (I can not get photo at this time as all my frogs are in town at this time) some had a metal button, and the French bayonets had a loop that would have a leather strap with a buckle pass through.
There was no loop mettal or otherwise, on the frog for the Troddel, it was looped about the riser of the frog (the bit of leather that connected the "pocket" with the loop), and as far as I know, the Troddel was never attached to the bayonet in modern times. That being said, the Austrian NCOs wore a Troddle, and theirs was attached to a loop similar to a sling loop on a rifle.
Reading the book "Good Soldier Schweik" one learns that the bayonet was used as a weapon while still inthe scabbard, that is, the belt would be removed and the bayonet and scabbard would be the weight of the "mace", but this would method would not be used in the trenches, but in the bars.
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Gus

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:13 am 
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Hello Gamburd: This photo may help clarify your question on bayonet frogs and bayonet knots. The knot on this particular bayonet signifies the 4th company.

Image

Reservist1


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 1:25 pm 
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Thanks Gus for the additional information.

Reservist1, that is such a great photo of the bayonet knot.

Thank you.




If anyone can sometime show a photo of how the bayonet frog connects to the belt, I would really like to see that.




It is kind of difficult to discern exactly how that was done:

Image




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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 2:47 pm 
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Hey Gamburd
look at the third photo that R1 posted, he shos the belt threaded through the loop of the frog, I am guessing that you have not held a frog in your hand? It is a pretty streightforward system.
Gus

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 5:41 pm 
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Thanks. :laughing6:


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:19 pm 
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Hey Gamburd,
Here is a shot of the bayonet scabbard inthe frog on the belt (with out the Troddel), with the E tool as a unite, the frog went between the loops that supported the shovel carrier, and the scabbard was then strapped to the scovel handle with the streap that held the shovel. This was done to keep the bayonet scabbard from banging on the shovel handle.
Image
Best wihses
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:01 pm 
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Thanks, Gus.


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 Post subject: Troddel use
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:48 am 
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The troddel was used up into WW2 and became more of a parade item then a field piece. A couple notes on pic's .
Mark


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 12:20 pm 
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Good for them they have bayonet knot to protect their sword.

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