Garde Pattern Brass Tornister Belt Support Hooks.

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Larmo
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Garde Pattern Brass Tornister Belt Support Hooks.

Post by Larmo » Mon Dec 26, 2011 3:43 pm

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Recently I was very happy to find these little brass tornister strap belt supports for sale. I was completely unaware of their existence prior to the purchase of the two volume set, The German Infantry, Uniforms and Equipment from 1871-1914 by Ulrich Herr and Jens Nguyen. There on page 120 is a photo of two different examples of these supports, one of which is similar to mine. The authors describe these as being adopted in 1874 and replaced in 1887 due to the adoption of a new pattern cartridge pouch. When I saw them come up for bid on Ebay.Fr I thought these are great little items, just too bad they are post 1870, my primary era of interest.

However, after having a look through Formations und Uniformierungsgeschichte des prussischen Heeres 1808 bis 1914 by Paul Pietsch, similar tornister hooks of both Garde & Line pattern are shown on page 109 as having been adopted in 1847. Hmmmm…. My German language skills are minimal at best, but what I could decipher from the text appears to quote an A.K.O. from 1847 specifying “Granatenform” brass hooks for the Garde on the new pack system. In the H&N reference there are two Garde pattern hooks illustrated, one has a series of pierced openings for stitching (shown in Pietsch), while the other is without stitch holes (not shown in Pietsch). The non-pierced example perhaps uses a brass button on the reverse to attach to the end of the tornister strap as my examples do. I realize this is much-ado-about-nothing in the scheme of things, but the question piqued my interest. Is the plain Garde hook the 1874 pattern that H&N refer to and the pierced example the true 1847 pattern? The Line Infantry hook in our photo (field recovered near Metz) shown to the right of our Garde pair, has a stitch pattern too. Is perhaps the difference in the Pietsch and H&N texts merely a transposition of two digits, overlooked in the proofread of H&N’s book? Did two distinct styles of Garde hooks existed simultaneously from 1847-1887, perhaps simply a manufacturers difference? Anyone know for sure? Chip?

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I pulled out my box of period photography to have a look to see if any examples of these Garde pattern hooks in use could be found,. lo and behold one was there. The Grenadier is armed with a M1862 zundnadelgewehr with his M1860 Garde pickelhaube hanging by its chinstrap from the hilt of his Faschinenmesser. With CDV in hand the Garde style hooks are clearly seen. However my photographic skills don’t bring it out very well but looking closely they are there nonetheless. The CDV image of the Fusilier armed with the M1871 Rifle and equipped with the 1874 pouches is quite clear. The Line pattern belt support hooks are easily seen.

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Front and rear views of the M1850, M1874 and M1887 pouches with the hook supports installed between the belt loops are provided. White straps Grenadier companies, black straps Fusilier companies.

Prior to 1887 the M1850 and M1874 cartridge boxes were without any support loops on the reverse. They were provided with elongated belt loops which allowed the pouch to hang below the bottom of the waist belt. These Garde and Line pattern tornister hooks then slipped between the cartridge box belt loops and provided much needed support for the weight of the ammunition. In 1887 a newly designed cartridge pouch was introduced which was provided with a rectangular brass loop sewn to the reverse of the pouch. A simplified hook at the end of the tornister strap slipped through this hook and provided similar support to the waist belt.

Cheers, Larmo

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Re: Garde Pattern Brass Tornister Belt Support Hooks.

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Mon Dec 26, 2011 5:24 pm

Those are just amazing. Wow. You made my night. =D>
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Re: Garde Pattern Brass Tornister Belt Support Hooks.

Post by Larmo » Wed Dec 28, 2011 8:49 am

Thanks Tony, that's what I thought when I first saw them in the H&N book, funny, thought I'd never see a pair. Glad you liked them...It's interesting how well they fit between the belt loops of the M1850 cartridge pouch.

Larry

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Re: Garde Pattern Brass Tornister Belt Support Hooks.

Post by Chip Minx » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:15 pm

Larry,

I took a look at Pietsch and could find no more than you did. I don't have any answers for you, but I will ask some of my German friends, who have much larger libraries than I.

Regards,
Chip
Guy A. Turner, Master Signal Electrician, Company C, 314.Field Signal Batl., 89th Div. St.Mihiel, Meuse Argonne, Defensive Sector.
1894-1981. My grandfather.

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Re: Garde Pattern Brass Tornister Belt Support Hooks.

Post by Larmo » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:17 pm

I took a look at Pietsch and could find no more than you did. I don't have any answers for you, but I will ask some of my German friends, who have much larger libraries than I.
Thanks Chip, I would like to know the answer, hope someone knows...

Larry

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Re: Garde Pattern Brass Tornister Belt Support Hooks.

Post by Chip Minx » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:15 pm

I did get a response from one of my German friends, who sent me the following from the book "Das deutsche Reichsheer in seiner neuesten Bekleidung und Ausrüstung". There is no date on the book, but given the units within, it has to be before 1889. Unfortunately, it's only one sentence.

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Guy A. Turner, Master Signal Electrician, Company C, 314.Field Signal Batl., 89th Div. St.Mihiel, Meuse Argonne, Defensive Sector.
1894-1981. My grandfather.

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Re: Garde Pattern Brass Tornister Belt Support Hooks.

Post by DAGS » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:44 am

How much can pay this belt support hooks?
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Re: Garde Pattern Brass Tornister Belt Support Hooks.

Post by LangeKerl » Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:31 pm

Another superb informative thread by Larry!

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