Chainstitching, soutache, woolen monograms...?

[Bobertil]

Hello everyone
This is my first time posting here, and I hope some of you clever heads can help me.

You see, the embroidery methods for M1895 shoulder boards have me quite confused. Shoulder boards for the bunte Rock are a pretty new topic for me, and one that I don't (yet) know much about. My question regards the cyphers and monograms of the boards: I see both hand-embroidery, chain-stitching, soutache and woolen monograms having being used, but is there a general rule of thumb as to what method would have been used when?

I'm particularly curious as to which method would have been used for issue-quality shoulder boards manufactured c. 1910, as I suppose private-purchase uniforms would use whatever method the customer preferred?

Best regards
Bertil

 

[Valery71]

Hello!
Interesting questions!
From my own experience can say :

The embroidery style used was whatever embroiderer in workshop had/
Lower ranks (Mannschaften ( were unlikely to by able to chose their own shoulder straps or commission custom ones /
But off/candidates were quite free to chose custom embroidery /

 

[Lars13]

Hi Bertil,
In the 1896 clothing regulations both Nummerschnur / Plattschnur (is that what you call soutache?) and chain stitching were allowed for the numbers on enlisted men's shoulder straps, by 1903 only chain stitching was specified.
For regiments with monograms, crowns, etc. there were more options, and both chain stitching and cloth applications were possible for enlisted men.
Hand embroidered I have only seen on private purchase items, certainly for regiments with just numbers. When chain stitching had become regulation, the Nummerschnur / Plattschnur was sometimes used on private purchase items.
Hope that helps,
Regards,
Lars

 

[Bobertil]

Hello!
Interesting questions!
From my own experience can say :

The embroidery style used was whatever embroiderer in workshop had/
Lower ranks (Mannschaften ( were unlikely to by able to chose their own shoulder straps or commission custom ones /
But off/candidates were quite free to chose custom embroider

Hi Bertil,
In the 1896 clothing regulations both Nummerschnur / Plattschnur (is that what you call soutache?) and chain stitching were allowed for the numbers on enlisted men's shoulder straps, by 1903 only chain stitching was specified.
For regiments with monograms, crowns, etc. there were more options, and both chain stitching and cloth applications were possible for enlisted men.
Hand embroidered I have only seen on private purchase items, certainly for regiments with just numbers. When chain stitching had become regulation, the Nummerschnur / Plattschnur was sometimes used on private purchase items.
Hope that helps,
Regards,
Lars

Hi Lars

Thanks a lot for your informative answer! I did not know of the correct terms "Plattschnur" and "Nummerschnur", but I'm certainly adding those to my mental dictionary from now on.
I am particularly interested in what Füsilier-Regiment 86 would have worn, as I have seen both woollen monograms and chainstitching on issued examples. Attached are some examples of their "AV" monogram as seen in the Sonderburg Castle Museum, and a picture of the woollen monogram of a (possibly private-purchase?) musician's uniform.

Is there any general rule-of-thumb as to when chainstitching was used versus cloth application? Were both things issued in the same time period, so that various enlisted men of the same company could be issued with both types at the same time, for example? (For instance in c. 1910).

And another thing: Was chainstitching also used for the shoulderboards of the M1894 Feldmantel post-1903? So far I have only seen the woollen monogram type as seen in the picture, but then again, that might just as well be survivorship bias, it being an Einjährigfreiwilliger example.

Any help would be much appreciated.
Best regards
Bertil

 

[Lars13]

Hi Bertil,

The 1903 clothing regulations specify the cypher and crown embroidered in dark red yarn:


Mike Kelso, in "Under Arms for the Kaiser", shows an M15 shoulder strap (i.e. field grey with white piping) that is embroidered like the 2nd and 4th shoulder strap in your line-up.

Regards,
Lars

 

[Bobertil]

Hello!
Interesting questions!
From my own experience can say :

The embroidery style used was whatever embroiderer in workshop had/
Lower ranks (Mannschaften ( were unlikely to by able to chose their own shoulder straps or commission custom ones /
But off/candidates were quite free to chose custom embroidery /

Thank you very much for your answer. Your help is much appreciated!

Hi Bertil,

The 1903 clothing regulations specify the cypher and crown embroidered in dark red yarn:
View attachment 77563

Mike Kelso, in "Under Arms for the Kaiser", shows an M15 shoulder strap (i.e. field grey with white piping) that is embroidered like the 2nd and 4th shoulder strap in your line-up.

Regards,
Lars

Hi Lars

Thanks a lot. That chart is completely new to me, and therefore all the while more interesting. Now, the branch of my German knowledge concerning clothing production technicalities is not exactly sharp as a knife, so perhaps you can help me - does "gestickt" literally concern one specific embroidery method (such as the literal embroidery on shoulder straps like on 2 and 4), or is it instead more of an umbrella term for all three methods of putting insignia on shoulder straps?

And is there a place where I can find the 1903 regulations online?

Best regards
Bertil

 

[Lars13]

does "gestickt" literally concern one specific embroidery method

Hi Bertil,
I don't know for sure, but it seems that in this case both on the pre-war blue uniform and on the field grey uniform the same method of stitching was used.

Sandy made a very nice overview of clothing regulations online https://www.pickelhaubes.com/xf/thr...et-and-clothing-regulations.17147/post-121228, with the 1903 regulations at https://www.historische-uniformen.de/fileadmin/downloads/Bekleidungsordnung_Anhang_II_1903.pdf

Regards,
Lars

 

[Bobertil]

Hi Bertil,
I don't know for sure, but it seems that in this case both on the pre-war blue uniform and on the field grey uniform the same method of stitching was used.

Sandy made a very nice overview of clothing regulations online https://www.pickelhaubes.com/xf/thr...et-and-clothing-regulations.17147/post-121228, with the 1903 regulations at https://www.historische-uniformen.de/fileadmin/downloads/Bekleidungsordnung_Anhang_II_1903.pdf

Regards,
Lars

Wonderful! This is very fascinating and enlightening reading, thank you. If I understand these regulations correctly, is it then true that the FR86 Schulterklappen for the Feldmantel were made like this?:
Pre-1903: Dunkelblau Tuch, white piping, Ponceaurot wool monograms
Post-1903: White Tuch, no piping, Dunkelrot embroidered monograms

You can have a look in the attached screenshots. In the 1903 one, I accidentally cut out some of the text. It originally said "in dunkelrothem Garn gestickt" at the end there.

Best regards
Bertil

 

[Lars13]

Pre-1903: Dunkelblau Tuch, white piping, Ponceaurot wool monograms
Post-1903: White Tuch, no piping, Dunkelrot embroidered monograms

Yes, that's how I understand it too