My Kurrasier and JzP M15's

[JohnM]

[J.LeBrasseur]

Great stuff John!

[Sandmann]

Wow! Simply Wow
I love these metal helmets. Hopefully I will find one which is in my pay-comfort-zone

[Khukri]

Great collection!!!
Francis

[b.loree]

That is a very very nice collection indeed, well done! I am wondering though, why 4 Kurassier examples? Perhaps all marked to different Regiments, sizes or makers??

[Sergei1877]

just awesome

[pickelhauben]

Very nice

[Arran]

Very cool! I'm seeing a few different makers represented judging from the shapes of the skulls and visors...

[kaiser]

Nice helmets seeing them al together

Jonas

[woznotwos]

This will be me in a few years time. I've just purchased my first lobster (with advice gratefully received from the forum). I'm now already looking at my other helmets and medals wondering what to sell to fund the next one. I'm hooked.

[coert65]

This will be me in a few years time. I've just purchased my first lobster (with advice gratefully received from the forum). I'm now already looking at my other helmets and medals wondering what to sell to fund the next one. I'm hooked.

You just cannot beat the Pickelhaube virus ! I bought my first one 9 years or so, now I got ten, and more Imperial German stuff I could only dream about before I started...
By the way, did you buy the one we saw in the New additions topic? If you want the bigger cavalry kokarden for it I still have 2, but they are repro's.
Let me know if you are interested in them.

Have a nice day!

Greetings, Coert.

[Sergei1877]

Simply super

[woznotwos]

This will be me in a few years time. I've just purchased my first lobster (with advice gratefully received from the forum). I'm now already looking at my other helmets and medals wondering what to sell to fund the next one. I'm hooked.

You just cannot beat the Pickelhaube virus ! I bought my first one 9 years or so, now I got ten, and more Imperial German stuff I could only dream about before I started...
By the way, did you buy the one we saw in the New additions topic? If you want the bigger cavalry kokarden for it I still have 2, but they are repro's.
Let me know if you are interested in them.

Have a nice day!

Greetings, Coert.

Sent you a pm but its stuck in my outbox. Is yours full Coert ?

[coert65]

Hi Warren, I got your mail, so everything is okay. My sent-box also stay's full, when I sent a message.
I will send you a picture of my cavalry repro's, further info via Pm.

Greetings, Coert

[ebeeby]

Very spikey! Thanks for sharing!

[SkipperJohn]

This will be me in a few years time. I've just purchased my first lobster (with advice gratefully received from the forum). I'm now already looking at my other helmets and medals wondering what to sell to fund the next one. I'm hooked.

You just cannot beat the Pickelhaube virus ! I bought my first one 9 years or so, now I got ten, and more Imperial German stuff I could only dream about before I started...
By the way, did you buy the one we saw in the New additions topic? If you want the bigger cavalry kokarden for it I still have 2, but they are repro's.
Let me know if you are interested in them.

Have a nice day!

Greetings, Coert.

I feel it necessary to interject a comment here. On another post I had mentioned that Model 1915 Kurassier and Jager zu Pferde helmets could be found with smaller Kokarden and that this was entirely proper. I was met with criticism and found it better to drop the subject than to argue my point. It now appears that someone is thinking of replacing perfectly legitimate small Kokarden with reproductions because a random statement was made on this forum. I also know that many of our members do not have faith in books written on the subject of Pickelhauben and would rather rely upon the internet and other sources. There are limited resources out there and that is why we count on each other here on the forum.

Here is a portion of what I have found:
In Eric Johansson's book, Pickelhauben, page 86, it says: "These large Kokarden were continued until the advent of the First World War. At that time, due to decreasing stocks of specific unit insignia, and the need for standardization, enlisted and NCO Kurassier personnel used the smaller infantry style Kokarden. Thus it is not unusual to see wartime helmets with small infantry-style roundels. This also applies to the Jaeger zu Pferde regiments."
A photo of a wartime example is shown on page 92 of the same book.
In Colonel Robert H. Rankin's book, Helmets and Headdress of the Imperial German Army 1870 - 1918, on page 20 is also a photograph of a wartime Kurassier.

I have been a collector for a long time and I never trust just one source, seldom even two sources, but The existence of small Kokarden on wartime Kurassier and JzP was further verified, in my humble opinion, on Tony's website.

He has one here: http://www.kaisersbunker.com/feldgrau/helmets/fgh15.htm
And here: http://www.kaisersbunker.com/feldgrau/helmets/fgh16.htm
And he explains it here: http://www.kaisersbunker.com/pt/metalhelme.htm

I do not have an AKO saying that the use of small Kokarden was approved for use by the Kurassier, but I likewise do not have an AKO saying that it was not.
When I put the above information together, my conclusion is that small Kokarden are legitimate.

John

[911car]

John,
I did not criticize you or said you were wrong, I said I do not agree, which does not necessarily mean the same thing… My point was that the reason why we see so many metal cavalry helmets with small infantry-style cockades nowadays is because these helmets were found without cockades, and no large ones were available for replacement. Did this happen during the war? Possibly, you may be right, and I would be happy to see a period photograph illustrating this fact, but I never did so far. And in my experience, when you are lucky enough to find a 100% original, untouched Kurassier or JzP helmet, like the one below (dated 1915), these always come with the large cockades.
But my main point is something else. Even if you are correct and small cockades were worn occasionally on cavalry helmets, this was an exception and not the rule. For the collector, in my opinion, these helmets must come with the large cockades; this is what contributes to making them unique and giving the distinctive allure. Personally, I think that a KR or JzP helmet looks terrible with small infantry cockades. It is like a M15 Hessian helmet with a cruciform spike base and a Prussian spike, or a M15 Dragoner helmet without a Perlring. You will always find someone to tell you that these have also been worn with Prussian spikes and this is probably true (Hessians also came with round spike bases), but what I like on a Hessian cruciform base is the fluted spike, and the Perlring on a Dr helmet. This also makes all the specific character, interest and value of these helmets. I prefer not to own the model than have a compromise. This is only my opinion though, and I totally respect other points of view.
Finally, regarding the replacement with large cockade reproductions, the KR helmet which sparked this discussion was presented with fake (repro) small cockades. Therefore, replacing small cockade copies with large cockade repros should not make a major dilemma…
Cheers, Bruno

[coert65]

To make this discussion even more difficult, I agree with the both of you.
Personally I like the larger ones, because it was meant to be so. But I also saw the Jäger zu Pferde helmet John is referring to, the one with the smaller kokarden, on Tony's site. I never saw a period picture of a helmet like this with the smaller kokarden, but that does not mean a thing.
I know, that during the war many things were taken for granted, and the rules sometimes did not weigh so much, they used what they had.
Also, war-bond helmets were being slapped together, as mentioned by someone else.
It is a really interesting discussion, I saw the kokarden, at least the reichskokarde on the picture of Warren, to me it looked good. Bruno saw something else, thought it was repro. So I told Warren I have these 2 cavalry-repro's still here, lying about.
So if he felt better he could get them, for a repro price.

As for the genuinity of the ones already on Warren's helmet, I need better pictures, and as for the reasons the smaller kokarden were used after 1915, as seen on Tony's site, which I do not question at all, I have no explanation. Except for the rules being bent late in the war, or just bond-helmets being made up.

Anyway, I see no things wrong with changing repro small ones for repro cavalry ones, and if the ones on Warren's helmet are geniune, he knows he still has them.
Because I only want to sell a pair of cav ones.

Have a nice sunday all,

Greetings, Coert

[SkipperJohn]

Perhaps criticism is too harsh a term, disagreement is better. I have no issue with replacing a repro with another repro and I agree with Bruno 100% that these helmets, both Kurassier and JzP, look much better with the larger Cavalry Kokarden. My real question is simple: were smaller Kokarden used on M15 Kurassier and JzP helmets or not?

This is a subject near and dear to my heart so I really try to obtain all of the information that I can regarding this. Because of the hobby we share I believe that we all must tolerate 'some' modifications to our helmets. I am not very tolerant. I have found that periodically I must accept a new bolt, a hex head nut, a replacement chin strap (especially M15's), and it always bothers me. My wife calls this "being anal".

My search into this matter started with two helmets. The first, "redheaded bastard stepchild" is shown here:

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=10776

I revered this helmet for many years and then, all of a sudden, everything about it was wrong. This occurred with the development of the internet, so it was several years later. I did bother me, considerably, none-the-less.

The second helmet was a much, much later purchase that I almost didn't buy because of the small Kokarden. It is shown here:

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=10685

I began my research in earnest prior to purchasing this helmet. I was absolutely convinced that small Kokarden were perfectly legit on model 1915 helmets. In researching this I found that it was virtually impossible to find a period photograph of a Prussian Kurassier or Jaeger zu Pferde soldier who was wearing a M15 helmet without an Uberzug. I found the information in Rankin's book (but, of course, that is the book I used back in the 60's), and I found the information in Johansson's book. I examined numerous websites, Tony's being the best, and I enlarged a copy of the famous pyramid photo. On the pyramid photo I found, at least, three Kurassier with small Kokarden, two JzP with small Kokarden, and two Kurassier with the incorrect spike. I was delighted, until I realized that by the time these helmets arrived at the pyramid it was already too late.

I don't believe that we have an argument here, just a discussion. That is what the forum is about, picking each others brains for what we know --- and what we don't.

John

[aicusv]

I've only ever had one of the M'15 KR helmets, I got it from an art studio, where it had been used as a still life model for years. The helmet was complete, except it had only the chinstrap rings that hold the strap to the post remaining, but the cockades were there. They were the small infantry type and always looked right to me. I never thought about the bond helmets having parts switched, but wouldn't that mean that somewhere along someone would have an infantry helmet with large cockades?
Not too long ago I was looking at a photo of an Infantry company standing in formation. Photo was taken around 1901. The interesting thing about it was that some men had a cockade on their helmet and some didn't. One of the men missing it was a senior NCO. ???

Years ago I was able to interview many veterans of the German Army of WWI, some were from mounted units. As the war went on the need for mounted troops was not there and some of these troops were utilized in other roles. Some were sent to guard rear areas, some were dismounted and used as infantry in the trenches, and some were sent to artillery units to act as drivers for the guns. Given this and the stories they told me about the German supply system, it is possible that things like cockades could have replaced in the field with what ever was available.

[911car]

I don't believe that we have an argument here, just a discussion. That is what the forum is about, picking each others brains for what we know --- and what we don't.
John

Of course not, John!! I never thought we were having an argument! Just a healthy discussion, and I am happy
to learn from you things I ignore. Hopefully, we shall also receive more feedback from other members.
Bruno

[coert65]

I also think we are having a great discussion, no arguments because we are all grown men learning from eachother John.

This is exactly why I like being on this forum for! Nobody knows everything off-course.

Have a nice day everybody,Coert

[JohnM]

Gentlemen,

If I may opine, what I think we have here is a matter of tastes and a lacking of solid information. I agree with Bruno in that any KR/JzP helmet marked before 1915 and not having painted steel grey fittings or wappen must have large cockades to be authentic. That being said I do not agree with this statement, Bruno, "Even if you are correct and small cockades were worn occasionally on cavalry helmets, this was an exception and not the rule. For the collector, in my opinion, these helmets must come with the large cockades...". Disclaimer!!! This is only my opinion and totally a wild ass guess but I have observed 2 things with these helmets.

1)Those with unpainted steel grey fittings dated 1915 or earlier have come with the large cockades ( there are exceptions) meaning they where untouched from the day they where issued.
2) Helmets with grey painted fittings and wappen seem to have the smaller infantry cockades on the majority of the ones I have seen.

So, again in my opinion, at some point in 1915 the unpainted KR and JzP helmets had to go back to the barracks to be painted over as per regulations. I suspect that you turned in your helmet and where issued a painted one or perhaps since not all KR and JzP went back to horseback duties you where issued a standard stahlhelm. If the helmets fittings where painted over I suspect the helmet was disassembled by removing the spike, wappen, cockades and chinstrap. The parts along with all the infantry helmets that where getting the same treatment where thrown together and those that could be re-used such as cockades and chinstraps where just added back on at the end of the process, with cockade sizes being ignored to expedite the process.

This theory might explain one thing, that being why we find perfect pre-1915 examples with the large cockades. They where turned in to the company stores and never made it to the refurbish line. They where then captured as is. We have to stop and ask ourselves why we find these unpainted helmets which if Regulations where strictly enforced should not really exist.

John

[aicusv]

In one of my veteran interviews, I was told about the stahlhelms availability. The stahlnelms were held in a depot behind the front lines. Troops entering the trenches would draw helmets from these depots. Upon leaving the trenches the helmets would be returned to the depot. The pickelhaub would be worn behind the lines. An interesting part of this was that there was a shortage of chin straps. The soldiers were required to use the chin strap from their pickelhaube. Leaving the soldier to find some way of securing his cockades. This condition lasted until enough stahlhelm could reach the troops (unfortunately they never said when that was).

[aicusv]

In one of my veteran interviews, I was told about the stahlhelms availability. The stahlnelms were held in a depot behind the front lines. Troops entering the trenches would draw helmets from these depots. Upon leaving the trenches the helmets would be returned to the depot. The pickelhaub would be worn behind the lines. An interesting part of this was that there was a shortage of chin straps. The soldiers were required to use the chin strap from their pickelhaube. Leaving the soldier to find some way of securing his cockades. This condition lasted until enough stahlhelm could reach the troops (unfortunately they never said when that was).