Another M95 enlisted pattern Vulcan Fiber Helmet with chin scales & stitched visors

[ww1czechlegion]

I think that I may have stumbled on to a hard to find helmet here, possibly an Unterzahlmeister helmet. I was reading the posting about the Zahlmeister helmet found here: https://www.pickelhaubes.com/xf/threads/prussian-unterzahlmeister-pickelhaube.17636/
I read what Sandy and Amy posted, and where Amy shows page 453 of the Stubbs book which I have, and I saw what Sandy posted from the original German orders.

I just purchased this helmet, along with the other vulcan fiber helmet I posted. I do not have it in my hands yet. The photos are from the seller. I do not think there is any "Depaheg Patent" mark on the enlisted pattern leather liner, but I cannot fully see a good view yet of the sides of the leather liner to check if there is any maker mark or not.

I am glad that I have a spare nickel silver split brad retainer to replace the 1-broken one that is missed the domed portion on the back of the spike base. It looks like someone may have turned the spike the wrong way when placing it on the helmet shell, as the vent holes are not placed correctly. The National & Prussian Kokardes are also switched to the wrong sides on the helmet.

Best Wishes

Alan

 

[ww1czechlegion]

I think that I have my information wrong about this helmet being an "Unterzahlmeister" helmet. It should have curved "silver" chinscales and not these curved brass chinscales on the helmet.

Now I am not sure what this helmet is.

 

[ww1czechlegion]

If it is trying to be a Pioneer enlisted helmet, it should have flat silver chin scales.

If it was trying to be an Unterzahlmeister helmet, it should have silver curved chin scales.

Is this a helmet that a collector or someone else messed with and they placed the wrong type of chin scales on an otherwise beautiful condition helmet?

Best Wishes,

Alan

 

[Naprawiacz]

Alan you need to see the center of the helmet,whether there are sometimes knopf marks there.

 

[Lars13]

Hi Alan,
Maybe I’m too nervous, but doesn’t it make you suspicious that the same seller has two of these special helmets, both unmarked, and both clearly handled in newer times?
Regards,
Lars

 

[Stosstrupp]

Beautiful helmet

 

[Sandmann]

Alan, I’m sorry but I think the chinscales could be a later addition. The correct chinscales should measure only 2,0 cm in width at the end, but this one seems to be wider. If it is 2,6 cm wide, it could be a chinscale for a dragoon helmet. Personally, I think it is a beautiful pioneer helmet and someone added wrong chinscales in newer times.

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Alan, I’m sorry but I think the chinscales could be a later addition. The correct chinscales should measure only 2,0 cm in width at the end, but this one seems to be wider. If it is 2,6 cm wide, it could be a chinscale for a dragoon helmet. Personally, I think it is a beautiful pioneer helmet and someone added wrong chinscales in newer times.

Hello,
Totally agree with Sandy. This helmet shows us an M95 (eagle with saddles, flap ventilation on the rear spine) So this helmet must imperatively have two side post to attach the M91 chinstrap, in leather with two sliders and two pin keys. The present chinstrap is indeed an M71 chinstrap for the train, or the light cavalry.
On the other hand, the cockades are indeed M91s with a large central hole of 19mm instead of 6mm, which explains why the roundel is offset from the rosette.

In conclusion, beautiful Pioneer helmet, provided you put the tip back in the right position, and above all find two nickel silver side post, and an M91 leather chinstrap, but nickel silver fittings, which is not easy.

 

[ww1czechlegion]

Hi Alan,
Maybe I’m too nervous, but doesn’t it make you suspicious that the same seller has two of these special helmets, both unmarked, and both clearly handled in newer times?
Regards,
Lars

Hi Lars,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts about being nervous, I understand what you are saying.

These two helmets came from a collector. They were sold on auction this past Sunday evening. The collector had 7 Imperial German helmets, and I was able to purchase only 2 of them. He also had a Spanish lobster tail helmet, and a beautiful pre-WW1 British spike helmet as well.

There was a decent M15 Prussian enlisted line Ulan Tschapka + Stone Mint M15 Baden enlisted helmet + an M15 Prussian enlisted helmet w/an incorrect JzP spike on it, and it was unit marked to Field Artillery Reg't 44 and had a repro chinstrap on it. There was also an M95 officer helmet that had a very strange Bavarian frontplate on it that was likely a repro frontplate.

Here's photos of the other helmets that I did not win that were on the collector auction:

This is the Ulan helmet I did not win on the auction, that the collector had. I believe the feldzeichen is an old copy. The chinstrap appears to be original. The national kokarde is original. The lining is starting to get dry-rot/red rot. I don't know if the visor needs restitching on it or if it is still firmly attached. The neck of the mortarboard has denting damage to it on viewer's right side.

 

[ww1czechlegion]

Here is the Baden M15 helmet in "stone mint" condition. I did not win this item on the auction on Sunday night.

It has an incorrect original Prussian kokarde. The chinstrap is an incorrect M95 style with the brass fittings. I do not know if the chinstrap is an original example, or if it is an original chinstrap. Regardless, it is the wrong chinstrap for this helmet.

 

[ww1czechlegion]

Here is the Prussian M15 Helmet that I did not win on the same auction on Sunday night from where I purchased the 2-Vulcan Fiber Helmets.

The spike is incorrect, it is a Jaeger zu Pferde M15 spike.

The chinstrap is a total reproduction chinstrap. The side mounts for the chinstrap appear to be made of leather, instead of metal like the original side mounts.

The helmet is unit marked to "Field Artillery Regiment 44" but it has no artillery ball top on the helmet.

Here are photos of the helmet:

 

[ww1czechlegion]

Alan you need to see the center of the helmet,whether there are sometimes knopf marks there.

Yes, I will look in the center of the helmet once I receive it in the mail. I will check to see if there are any maker marks there. And I will look on the right and left side of the leather liner to see if there is a "Depaheg Patent" maker mark logo, or if it is not present.

Thank you!

Best Wishes,

Alan

 

[ww1czechlegion]

Alan, I’m sorry but I think the chinscales could be a later addition. The correct chinscales should measure only 2,0 cm in width at the end, but this one seems to be wider. If it is 2,6 cm wide, it could be a chinscale for a dragoon helmet. Personally, I think it is a beautiful pioneer helmet and someone added wrong chinscales in newer times.

Hi Sandy,

Yes, thank you for this information. I agree that the chin scales are the wrong size, likely for a dragoon helmet as you mention.

I will see what the hole size looks like for the rosette attachment, when I receive the helmet in the mail. Hopefully this helmet was made to be set up with chin scales. But maybe it was made to be worn with the M95 chinstrap attachment lugs and a leather chinstrap with silver trim. I will soon find out more about the helmet. I will post photos when the helmet arrives for all to see. Thanks Sandy!

Best Wishes,

Alan

 

[ww1czechlegion]

Hello,
Totally agree with Sandy. This helmet shows us an M95 (eagle with saddles, flap ventilation on the rear spine) So this helmet must imperatively have two pin pins to attach the M91 chinstrap, in leather with two sliders and two pin keys. The present chinstrap is indeed an M71 chinstrap for the train, or the light cavalry.
On the other hand, the cockades are indeed M91s with a large central hole of 19mm instead of 6mm, which explains why the roundel is offset from the rosette.

In conclusion, beautiful Pioneer helmet, provided you put the tip back in the right position, and above all find two nickel silver pins, and an M91 leather chinstrap, but nickel silver fittings, which is not easy.

I have to ask why the helmet would not use an M95 chinstrap versus an M91 chinstrap? These Vulcan Fiber helmets did not exist before 1900. Does anyone know the exact date when the first Vulcan Fiber helmets were introduced into the Prussian Army?

I want to also ask why the helmet would not have been configured for Garrison Wearing, or for Parade Use Wearing, and thus for using a set of proper size chin scales on this helmet, instead of for Field Use to have a leather chinstrap on this helmet?

I believe that I will not know for certain until I receive the helmet in the mail and examine it in person and take photos to show everyone here. Until I receive the helmet, I will not know if the size of the hole that currently has a rosette with split brads attached through the hole on the side of the helmet is big enough for an M95 chinstrap attachment device made of metal, or if it is set up to have a rosette with chin scales. I think this thought process is only logical until I can see the helmet in person, when I receive it in the mail.

The M91 chinstrap and the attachment devices on the sides of the helmet are different from the M95 chinstrap and the attachment devices for the sides of the helmet.

Regardless, I do have a set of neuslber M95 chinstrap metal devices. And I have a spare leather chinstrap with neusilber fittings that I could use on this helmet, if need be.

Thanks again for your nice thoughts, I appreciate it!

Best Wishes,

Alan

 

[Lars13]

Hi Alan,
Thanks for posting the other helmets.
Exciting to see what you have once you’ve got the helmets in hand
Regards,
Lars

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Bonjour Alain,
Concernant la Tchapka, la visière n'est jamais cousue, elle est maintenue par les 2 rivets latéraux, et une fine basane collée (sauf sur certains Ersatz de 14).
Concernant la jugulaire à tourillon, qu'elle soit à écailles pour la parade, ou à lanière de cuir pour le combat et le service c'est l'année 1891. Le casque 1895 recevra des oeillets derrière le pontet et une trappe d'aération sur la colonne vertébrale arrière et prendra la jugulaire M91.

 

[ww1czechlegion]

Hello Alan,
Concerning the Tchapka, the visor is never sewn, it is held by the 2 side rivets, and a thin glued basane (except on some Ersatz of 14).
Concerning the chinstrap with trunnion, whether it is with scales for the parade, or with leather strap for the combat and the service it is the year 1891. The 1895 helmet will receive eyelets behind the bridge plate and a ventilation flap on the rear spine and will take the chinstrap M91.

How did this morph into you making a statement about a Tschapka and the visor attachment technique on this thread??? Where on earth is this coming from? All I did was to post photos of some of the other helmets that were on the auction from the collector in order to soothe the fears that Lars politely and logically posted here:

Hi Alan,
Maybe I’m too nervous, but doesn’t it make you suspicious that the same seller has two of these special helmets, both unmarked, and both clearly handled in newer times?
Regards,
Lars

I am sorry to say this but I find the bringing up of how a tschapka visor is attached to be totally bizarre and very strange when nothing about this thread has anything to do about tschapka visors until you decided to share your knowledge about tschapka visor attachment technique. I'm shaking my head in total dis-belief at this moment while I write this here. How you morphed the discussion into you once again sharing your knowledge here of something totally unrelated to the original topic posting here is quite unique.

Unfortunately I am guessing that you're not an English speaker, and you are totally loosing me on whatever translator program you're using to write here, which is unfortunate for both of us. I have no idea what you are referring to as a "bridge plate" in your most recent posting above, and I can somewhat guess what the use of word "trunion" means. I am guessing you use the word "trunion" to refer to an M91 or M95 side post attachment device for the enlisted pattern of chinstrap.

I do not speak German or French or Dutch, and understand how it is to have to use a translator device such as "Bing" in order to communicate with others with different native languages. I used to participate a little on the old "feldgrau" forum using an internet translator device such as "Bing" and posting photos of belt buckles and pickelhaubes, until they switched to a new computer server for their forum and they lost about 6-months of topic postings on their forum, including most of the ones I had posted there.

The collector that had the 7 helmets that were up for auction sale on Sunday seems to have put some wrong parts on various helmets, or he purchased them with incorrect parts on them from wherever he acquired them from. Obviously the 2-Vulcan Fiber helmets have incorrect dragoon chin scales on them.

It was my mistake to prematurely post these 2-helmets before I have them in hand, since I cannot see if either of them has the "Depaheg Patent" maker mark logo, or to see what the size of the hole is on the right and left side of each of the helmets, where the rosette split brads are attached through. My very bad mistake!

 

[ww1czechlegion]

Hi Alan,
Thanks for posting the other helmets.
Exciting to see what you have once you’ve got the helmets in hand
Regards,
Lars

Thank you very much Lars, I appreciate your comment!

I will be curious to see them in hand. I am curious if there is a "Depaheg Patent" maker mark in either or both of the helmets. Maybe there is no maker mark inside.

I am also curious to remove the rosettes and chin scale set from both helmets and to see what the hole diameter size is where the rosettes are currently attached, and if there is any evidence of M91 or M95 side posts ever having been on each of the two helmets or not.

I should have waited to post these two threads until I have both helmets in hand. Thanks again for your kind words.

Best Wishes,

Alan

 

[b.loree]

Alan a translator program is being used by Clovis. Many of our helmet fittings/parts are not often used in English and as a result, the translation screws up and thus, the confusion.

 

[ww1czechlegion]

Alan a translator program is being used by Clovis. Many of our helmet fittings/parts are not often used in English and as a result, the translation screws up and thus, the confusion.

Thanks Brian, that is what I was beginning to presume is the situation. I've been there, done that as well.

Thanks again!

Best Wishes,

Alan