Filz

joerookery

joerookery

Well-known member
There is a new article at http://pickelhauben.net/articles/filz.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This was designed to create a discussion about filz.

Here are some things that I would love to see from collectors who have examples.

1. Can you visibly tell the difference between wool and rabbit examples?

2. Can you tell the difference between the 1905 experimental helmet and a 1914 production with a black visor?

3. Can you show various methods that the visor's were attached with?

4. Can we show various examples?
 
Another excellent article.

So...there were felt helmets made with leather neck guards and visors aside from the experimental helmet of circa 1905?

Were any all-felt helmets made with sewn-on felt neckguards and visors? Bowman claims that in his second volume, but he errs in several places.
 
So Bowman probably mistook the leftover experimental helmets for wartime production items and/or repaired felt helmets?
 
So...there were felt helmets made with leather neck guards and visors aside from the experimental helmet of circa 1905?
Click to expand...

I would think so. However Tony has seen 1 million of these without one. The real question in my mind is how do you tell the difference?

M91.jpg


This example has fiber visors. It is also of officers helmet of the M 15 variety. Therefore it was not part of the experimental helmet drill but is clearly private purchase and not part of a mass produced 1914 tidal wave. The• non-filz might be experimental hand-me-downs, might be repair jobs, might be production jobs. I have no idea how you would tell the difference. Visors that were not filz had been around since Chinese times.


ps1530b by joerookery, on Flickr
 
Oh, yes...I forgot about the officer helmets and the colonial enlisted ones.

But as far as the 1914 "tidal wave" of enlisted men's helmets, is there any period photographic evidence that newly-made felt helmets (or even repaired felt ones) had leather visors/neck guards?

Page 59 of Johansson's Pickelhauben shows what he calls a "Prussian wartime ersatz...variation of a wartime creation which utilized only small amounts of essential leather," but it seems more likely that it's a 1905 helmet brought out of mothballs.
 
is there any period photographic evidence that newly-made felt helmets (or even repaired felt ones) had leather visors/neck guards?
Click to expand...

Not that I'm aware of. Lots of pictures of dark visors. But no way to tell if they are new or old or repaired that I am aware of. How do you tell? Unless there is some sort of marking with the date how do you know if an example is one or the other? You could probably tell if it was re-stitched but how would you know if it is old or new? My goodness we are talking about 100 years ago!


ps78 by joerookery, on Flickr
 
joerookery said:
Not that I'm aware of. Lots of pictures of dark visors. But no way to tell if they are new or old or repaired that I am aware of. How do you tell? Unless there is some sort of marking with the date how do you know if an example is one or the other? You could probably tell if it was re-stitched but how would you know if it is old or new? My goodness we are talking about 100 years ago!
Click to expand...

Visually in a photo I cannot see how you could tell if it was a Preußische Versuchshelm (Experimental Pickelhaube) Model 1905/06 or an Ersatz Filz that has had repaired visors sewn on by a Instandsetzungsamt (repair depot).

If you have one in hand though, its easy. The Versuchshelm Model 1905/06 is a normal leather Pickelhaube with the shell covered in felt on the outside.

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/dunkelblau/helmets/dbh71.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If its a Filz, its felt. Plus the Filz liners are sewn around the inside, not around the outside edge like a leather Pickelhaube.

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/feldgrau/helmets/fgh39.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In your photo Joe, highly unlikely that every soldier has an identically repaired Ersatz Filz, so logically they must all be wearing Versuchshelm that were dug out of storage and issued during the war.
 
If you have one in hand though, its easy.
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Thanks Tony those examples are really clear. They were there all the time I just did not connect all the dots. Therefore it makes no sense to reproduce the 1905 model but rather to have a completely filz helmet with an additional kind of visor if there was such a production model. You have not seen one and I wonder if one exists? At least you can clearly tell the difference which really taught me something.

Can you tell the difference between wool and rabbit? Clearly there were different models offered I am not sure about price differences. I agree that all of the recruit pictures could not possibly be repair jobs. It would have to be either a 1905 model or a new production type if one existed. Thanks for pointing my nose to the examples I think I have to change the writeup. :thumb up:
 
joerookery said:
[ Visors that were not filz had been around since Chinese times.
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True, the 1900/01 East Asian Helmet had a green/grey leather visor. Will these be included in your article? The East Asian uniforms seemed to be experiments for what might later be used in the Prussian army.

Cheers
Chris

colonies%20004.jpg
 
Does the 1900/01 East Asian helmet have a spine?

Did an artillery version exist? If so, did it have a regular ball mount or a slightly smaller base without domed rivets like the infantry spike shown above?
 
Can you tell the difference between wool and rabbit?
Click to expand...

Here's a quote from a hat company (http://www.noggintops.com/page.cfm?p=37" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;):

"Fur felt, made from the fine hairs of rabbits or beaver, is generally thinner, lighter in weight, and more dense than wool felt. Due to the density of the material, fur felt hats can have a raw edge brim (just cut, no binding or welt) while wool felt hat brim edges must generally be bound or welted (turned over and sewn). The greater density of fur felt generally relates to a longer lifespan of the hat (there are Civil War era fur felt hats that could still give good service). Fur felt hats can also be given a smoother finish than wool felt, which is why it is a preferred material for dress hats. Both felts have similar characteristics of water-repellency and breathability (though there are a host of poor quality wool felt hats out there that fall apart when they get wet--none of which are sold here). Wool felt hats have an edge in insulating ability in cold weather."

It may be that the bound-edge imperial helmets are wool felt. By bound edge I mean it's turned under and sewn----a feature sometimes found on fedoras.
 
Brad,

Exceptional explanation! I plan on copying your discovery and putting it in the rewrite. Here is something that's somewhat interesting considering the dress hat issue. This seller specialized in wool. Even the hats for the priests were made of wool.

Click for large view - Uploaded with Skitch
 
Small rewrite it in my latest question list.

Here are some things that I would love to see from collectors who have examples.

1. Can you visibly tell the difference between wool and rabbit examples?

2. What was the relative price of the different models?

3. Was there a production run of leather or fiber visored filz helmets in 1914 or later? Or were all of the leather looking visors 1905 reissues or repair jobs?

4. Can we show various examples?
 
joerookery said:
// Can you tell the difference between wool and rabbit? //
Click to expand...

This is rabbit >>
Bugs.jpg
This is wool >>
shaun-laid-back.jpg


So I prefer what Brad found on hats. Very interesting. Chris, beautiful helmet. I would expect that with the Tschako-edge, the visor would be thick fibre. You say it is leather?
 
Tony, brilliant illustration of the difference between rabbit and wool! :D

To be honest, I'm don't know if its thick fibre or leather on the East Asian Haube....

Does not appear to have a spine-

oabb%20picklehaube%202.jpg


Note that this example has larger ventilation holes in base of spike....

Yes, artillery version did exist-

800px-Casques_de_marins_allemands.JPG


Interesting that the seller's illustration of a Suedwester hat is the wrong way around, right side should be folded up not left, at least for the Schutztruppe.

Cheers
Chris
 
There's an artillery version on p. 190 of Reiner Herrmann's book, but it has a standard ball mounted on top. He describes it as a "Mannschaftshelm der Artillerie des Ostasiatischen Expeditionskorps."

Were these Ostasia helmets built with a covered leather dome, like the 1905 experimental helmets?
Is the covering felt (possibly wool felt) or just wool cloth?
 
3. Was there a production run of leather or fiber visored filz helmets in 1914 or later? Or were all of the leather looking visors 1905 reissues or repair jobs?
4. Can we show various examples?
Click to expand...

A very interesting discussion here! Anyway here are some (old) pics of my felt helmet with leather visor. If I follow everything here correctly, this should be a repaired felt helmet with leather visor and not a helmet that was factory produced this way.
Maybe the markings on the back visor can determine wether it's a repair or not...

Adler













 
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