Gas Warfare

Brian,
I'm surprised you're selling such a nice Gummimaske. I look forward to seeing how it does.

Are either of the cans maker marked? I have a leather mask with the same style of can as yours, and it's marked S&H.
On these leather masks, I always look at how and where the hook (loop) for the string is fastened to the mask's lower plate. I don't see the hook in the pictures, and was wondering if you can tell if it ever had one or if it's missing. Here are 2 different versions I've seen.
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I have not read any thing ordering troops to shave but most men would more than likely shave .
I think lice also had an influence on men shing beards.
Mark
 
Hans, neither one of my masks shows any form of string hook attatchment as you show in your fotos. So, I guess that there were ledermaske models without the string and hook?? The ledermaske can has an "S" stamped into the can where the clip fastener is. There are no makers marks on the gummi can. I am selling out of economic necessity and the fact is I bought these years ago with the idea in mind of making up a mannequin. The reality is that I will not be able to do that so, thus the sale. The gummi was purchased at an antique show and supposedly was brought back by a Doctor who had served in the CEF. I have the Docs name in my records if memory serves. Brian
 
Brian,

I've seen other leather masks without the hooks and string, and have wondered if they were made without them, especially so where there is no sign of a hook having ever been present. The most obvious reason for the string in my opinion is to keep the heavy filter end of the mask from hanging down, which would prevent a tight fit by allowing small gaps to form along the edge of the mask when worn. The Belgian-made copies of the German GM 17s I've seen have this feature as well.

I was just curious about the GM 17 can's maker because I've seen that variation of lid before, although not too often, and wondered if that was a design change or a feature of a certain maker. Below is mine. I remembered the marking wrong, it's H&S.
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My Gummi can is marked with an S. Some day, I hope to find out more about these makers. The maker marks on my cans so far are: MAB, S, H&S, K in a circle, and J in a circle. A few are unmarked.
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Hey Hans,
I have read that the reason for the cord, was to be able to hang the filter on the cord so that it was higher, this allowed the lenses to flatten out so the wearer was looking straighter through them, so it would minimize distortion. We need to remember that the wearer of this mask was looking through two lenses if the moistrue absorbing lenses were instaled.
guys021xr2.jpg

This showes the way the mask would be worn, I have never seen a period photo of this, but I have seen artist's drawings that show this configuration (although on French soldiers)
Gus
 
My understanding is that the purpose of the cord was to assist in pulling the mask out of the can. Try it, it works.
Steve
 
b.loree said:
Well boys, I have both my gas masks up for sale right now on ebay. Hans be sure to check out the Gummi, it has the same markings as your filter except the date is 21 Nov 1916. Brian
Click to expand...

Brian, you mention in your ebay description of the Gummimaske can that you believe a buckle is missing from the end of the long strap on the carrier can. I don't think that end had a buckle, just the strap cloth folded up and sewn together to form a bundle or knot to keep the strap in place. I think all that happened was that the thread holding this area together has unravelled.
The picture of my Gummi can below shows what I mean. Look at the strap attachment on the left.
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Getting back to the cord on the leather masks, I've read that the Ledermaske was never considered a successful gas mask due to the fit never being completely tight. It was described as stiff with the filter end weighing down the mask enough to dislodge it completely from the face if the head was abruptly turned or by any other violent movement. I agree with Gustav that the rigidity of the leather and the pull of the filter most definately also affected the position of the lenses, making it difficult to see. The cord, in my opinion, was meant to fix the filter end in place as much as possible and help counter all of these problems.

These two masks below both have the cord. Both have different attachment hooks or loops, which might indicate differing manufacturers and not design upgrades. The one on the left, which I've shown previously, has a 1917 dated filter with the Schnappdeckel and is in a state of excellent preservation with a rich amount of oil still present in the leather and even the cord. According to one source, seal blubber oil was used to coat the leather, which was Bulgarian chrome tanned sheepskin, the same leather you see in later war helmets as the white leather liner pads.
The one on the right with a July 1918 filter is much dryer, and has 3 repair patches on the exterior. Apparently the maximum amount of patches allowed was 5.
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White leather liner pads in an M18 helmet.
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Hans, regarding my Ebay Gummi you are correct the one buckle is present as it should be and all that has happened is that the stitching on the other end of the strap has rotted through. Any comments / opinions as to why my ledermaske is missing the metal eye piece circles? Brian
 
The threaded metal eye pieces are detachable, not to mention very fragile. I've actually watched someone take out an eyepiece at a show from a mask I was selling a few years ago, and snap the webbed middle part into 3 peices as he tried to put it back in. Some people simply don't know how to handle old things. He was good enough to buy it. The eye pieces on yours had lots of opportunity to be lost or broken, either by the veteran, his kids, or subsequent owners.
 
The other expanation of the lack of the webbed metal eyepices is that it is a model 1918 mask. These didn't have the webbed center on the eye pieces. At first I thought yours might be that model, but the M18 had a stiff cloth support strap where the M17 had the string cord, and I think your mask would have shown signs of it once being there. This is another indication to me that the rope cord was a support feature to stabilize the filter, and shows that it didn't work well.

These M18s are rare over here, but come up for sale quite a bit in Europe, although they are usually the postwar Reichswehr upgrade with the vent lug on the left (?) side of the mask.
 
I forgot to add that the reason the metal eyepieces come out is because the GM 17 was designed with a double layer of lenses, one fixed to the outside of the mask, while the interior lens was made of a more flexible celluloid and was disposable. Those are the lenses you sometimes find in the lid compartments of the carrier cans. The Gummimaske didn't have this feature.
 
Hey Brian,
Look at the inside of the lenses on your Ledermaske, is there a ring that can be screwed out? This was what held the gelatin coated lenses in place, they may be missing, or the web my be removed or did not exsist.
Gus
 
The string or cord was there to support the wieght of the filter , the early installment of this pattern filter on the Gummi style showed that the filter was heavy and tended to pull it off the seal. the cord will take the weight of the filter , i think the button on the rear of the y strap has to do with this.
The M18 legder mask has a very heavy support stap similar in wieght and look to the rear stap or even heavier .
The mask and the german use was alway's not great thier casual approach to gas defence .This was a major factor in most of gas casualties. In principal the replacement filter was a great design as compared to the SBR of the Commenwealth and US forces but it still was limited to a maximum of 45 minutes .
Other factor's that the german's had agianst them were the liven;s projector's , these could deliver a larger more concentrated gas area than shell or cannister attack's .
Zippey
 
I've never seen the cord attached to the button on the top y-strap. The cord usually was attached to a leather loop on the top of the mask, or in some cases, a metal loop sewn to the top y-strap just in front of the button.

Mark, how did you come to the conclusion that the German approach to gas defense was casual? From what I've read in first hand accounts and training manuals, I've always found the opposite to be true.

Here's the metal loop to which the cord was attached on some Leder masks.
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Hey Hans, I believe the button was there so the cord could be pulled tight and attached to the button, then it would be easier to dis-attach the cord on removal, as it is easier to put the mask on with out the cord being tight. I agree with you about the quality of the German mask. The British and Ameircans would believe that thier SBR was better, as it relied on a mouth peice to make the seal, but this made it very difficult to communicate. The German filter was limited to about half the time of use as the SBR, but most German soldiers carried a spare, and the filter could be changed with ease, where the SBR was not so easy to do, and soldiers did not carry a spare. Also, the German (and French and Belgian ARS masks) were easier to work with, as there was no hose to restrict head movement. The Gummi and Leder masks are very similar to the modern resperators in construction (apart rom the face peices being made of plastic now) with the screw in filter.
By the way, the same fellow from Italy has out bid me on the Gummi again, and I will not be bidding again, so if there are any of you out there who think that just because some one you know is bidding on it, that you should not bid, well it is time to get off your butts, as it is still undervalued.
I would like to see some of these Italian collectors join the forum, I have see glimpses of a few of the better Italian collections, and there are some amazing collectors over there.
 
Gustav, thanks for the information on the button. I think you're right, because I can't think of any other purpose for it being there.
As for the British and American respirators, I know very little about them. I've always suspected that, although they may have been better in some respects, they weren't as practical as the German masks, and this might be the reason the French and Belgians copied the Lederschutzmaske and never used the British pattern. As for the German filter's limited lifespan, I have read accounts of troops being trained extensively in changing the filter in simulated combat conditions. There are also accounts of the required number of spare filters each company had to have in storage when in the front lines, as well as other gas defense measures such as the use of fires to counter or neutralize the effects of certain gases (chlorine?).

I've been in contact with a few Italian collectors and have bought a few very nice items from them. The quality of the items in some of their collections is incredible.
 
Hey Hans,
The French actually did use a mask similar to the SBR, it was used more by artillery troops using gas shells. The American Navy used a mask that was very similar to the German M15. Some where in my collections room, I have a reprint of the US manual on masks, there were many different types that we seldom see.
Gus
 
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