Generaloberst mit dem Rang eines General-Feldmarschalls

KAGGR#1 said:
Bernhard a al suite to GGR 2 had 4 rank stars only
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Steve,

Bernhard would have worn the three variations of insignia;

Promoted to "normal" Generaloberst on 15 September 1905 (3 stars as shown in your portrait of him)

Awarded the rank of a Generalfeldmarschall on 11 September 1909 (3 stars and crossed batons)

And the final insignia per AKO of 3 January 1911 (4 stars)

Regards
Glenn
 
Glennj said:
Steve,

Bernhard would have worn the three variations of insignia;

Promoted to "normal" Generaloberst on 15 September 1905 (3 stars as shown in your portrait of him)

Awarded the rank of a Generalfeldmarschall on 11 September 1909 (3 stars and crossed batons)

And the final insignia per AKO of 3 January 1911 (4 stars)

Regards
Glenn
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Glenn ;
Excellent information once again
Many thanks
Steve
 
Addition... I am currently translating a handwritten part of a Prussian clothing regulations from 1870, which I did not know before, into a more readable script, similar to the other clothing regulations of the 1890s. In this the epaulet field of the General-Oberst is prescribed again with 3 stars (§ 27 b)
3DBA6950-34BD-4021-AF46-FF1FD93A0205.jpeg
Glenn thankfully made me aware of its existence. The original document is written in the old German „Kanzlei“ handwriting and can be downloaded from the website of the German Federal Archives "invenio-bundesarchiv.de" (Archive-Signature: PH 2/1121). With a few days patience you can also download the complete transcript from my website after I am ready with it.
 
Great work Sandy!

I think however, instead of “und auf den epauletthaltern:” it reads “epaulettfeldern:”

Regards
Glenn
 
You are right Glenn. When I remembered it I already wrote a few lines. Thought I got all, hope this is the last. (y)
 
Sandy,

you can without doubt do a far better job of transcribing that awful handwriting than I could ever do!

One can see from this 1870 document that the rank of a “charakterisierte” (brevet) Generalfelmarschall was not on record either at this time. Not only Pietsch, but also Herbert Knötel in a 1937 article for the ”Zeitschrift für Heeres- und Uniformkunde“ quite explicitly stated that the crossed batons and two stars was introduced by the AKO of 30 March 1854. This is false as the AKO only introduced the three star rank of the Generaloberst and General-Feldzeugmeister.

Only three individuals ever held this rank; the first, Friedrich Karl Emil Graf zu Dohna-Schlobitten was promoted to this rank on 14 March 1854 but was substantively promoted to the rank of GFM on 9 August 1856 with seniority from the date of his original brevet promotion. The two images I have of him only show crossed batons.

The other two, Karl von Steinmetz and Karl Herwarth von Bittenfeld, promoted as such on 8 April 1871 did appear to wear the additional two stars and so presumably this insignia was introduced around the same time as the crossed batons and three star insignia for the Generaloberst (with the rank of a Generalfeldmarschall).

Regards
Glenn
 
Sandmann said:
Addition... I am currently translating a handwritten part of a Prussian clothing regulations from 1870, which I did not know before, into a more readable script, similar to the other clothing regulations of the 1890s. In this the epaulet field of the General-Oberst is prescribed again with 3 stars (§ 27 b)
View attachment 26403
Glenn thankfully made me aware of its existence. The original document is written in the old German „Kanzlei“ handwriting and can be downloaded from the website of the German Federal Archives "invenio-bundesarchiv.de" (Archive-Signature: PH 2/1121). With a few days patience you can also download the complete transcript from my website after I am ready with it.
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As promised, I have transcribed the mentioned handwritten draft of the Prussian Clothing Regulations for Officers of 1870 (Entwurf der Bestimmungen über den Anzug der Offiziere und Militär-Beamten). It is now available for free on my homepage.
 
A truly herculean effort by Sandy!

Here is a sample of the original. I have seen much worse handwriting but nonetheless, Sandy's transcription certainly makes life much more comfortable. :) A big thanks from me.

Regards
Glenn

Sandy.jpg
 
Glennj said:
A truly herculean effort by Sandy!

Here is a sample of the original. I have seen much worse handwriting but nonetheless, Sandy's transcription certainly makes life much more comfortable. :) A big thanks from me.

Regards
Glenn

View attachment 26825
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Another great advantage is that it you can search for words and the paragraphs in the table of contents are linked to the paragraphs in the text.
 
Hi Sandy,

Thanks for making the regulations accessible for all that don't have access to them and / or can't read the old German script. I always prefer primary sources over secondary ones ;)

Regards,

Lars
 
Good day!
Did any colonel general at the rank of Field Marshal have a fieldmarshal's baton as his insignia and decoration or no?

Regards, Alexander.
 
AlexSteve said:
Good day!
Did any colonel general at the rank of Field Marshal have a fieldmarshal's baton as his insignia and decoration or no?

Regards, Alexander.
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As Glenn wrote, the batons were introduced for a colonel general at the rank of Field Marshal around 1879. Before they wore just 3 stars on the epaulettes. Unfortunately we didn’t find a regulation about that, but other old sources indicate this.
 
I mean the marshal's baton like a staff. Some portraits depict Emperor Wilhelm I with his marshal's baton.

Regards, Alexander.
 

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There was a book published about all of the GFM batons
that were awarded . Lots of quality photos
A very expensive book , if you can find it
Steve
 
I have a copy of the book Steve mentions; “Mythos Marschallstab”. It makes no mention of any of the Generaloberst (mdReGFM) as having been awrded a marshals’ baton and does not list any. Interestingly a baton for Kaiser Wilhelm I is not listed either.

Regards
Glenn
 
It seems that not only monarchs were allowed to wear a marshal’s batons. I found 2 photos of General-Obersts, who was captured
I know of 2 cabinet photos of a General-Oberst mit dem Rang eines Generalfeldmarschalls with a marshal's baton, who was not a monarch. It was Colmar Freiherr von der Goltz and Paul von Hindenburg, who became Generalfeldmarschall in 1914. Von der Goltz died in 1916 and the linked photo of Hindenburgs with baton is from 1915, so I think not just monarchs but every Field Marshal was allowed to carry batons.
 
Glennj said:
I have a copy of the book Steve mentions; “Mythos Marschallstab”. It makes no mention of any of the Generaloberst (mdReGFM) as having been awrded a marshals’ baton and does not list any. Interestingly a baton for Kaiser Wilhelm I is not listed either.

Regards
Glenn
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There is a description of one piece. No photo, unfortunately.


Field Marshal's Baton of Wilhelm I of Germany.
Maker unknown
Assumed Prussian origin, C. 1864
Purple velvet, metallic embroidery, gold caps
L: 50.2 cm; D: 3.8 cm
West Point Museum Collection, United States Military Academy, West Point, New York.

Regards, Alexander.
 
Sandmann said:
It seems that not only monarchs were allowed to wear a marshal’s batons. I found 2 photos of General-Obersts, who was captured
I know of 2 cabinet photos of a General-Oberst mit dem Rang eines Generalfeldmarschalls with a marshal's baton, who was not a monarch. It was Colmar Freiherr von der Goltz and Paul von Hindenburg, who became Generalfeldmarschall in 1914. Von der Goltz died in 1916 and the linked photo of Hindenburgs with baton is from 1915, so I think not just monarchs but every Field Marshal was allowed to carry batons.
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As far as I know, Hindenburg's marshal's baton was sold at auction a few years ago.

Regards, Alexander.
 

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