joerookery
Well-known member
I would love to but I do not have the tools yet. that is some serious bling!
Identifying the unidentified
- Thread starter Glennj
- Start date
Serious bling indeed; and in this case, the stuff that makes Oberst Richard v. Beck easily identifiable. Oberst v. Beck commanded 5. Badisches Infanterie-Regiment Nr. 113 from 18 October 1902 until assuming command of the 26. Infanterie-Brigade in the rank of Generalmajor on 10 April 1906. The highlighted entries from the 1905 Army List match exactly his awards worn at the neck and below with the exception of the Crown Order 2 which he received on 18 January 1906. From top to bottom: Crown Order 2 (KO2), Commander's Cross 2nd Class of Baden Order of the Zähringer Lion (BZ2b), Austrian Order of the Iron Crown 2nd Class (ÖEK2), Austrian Franz Josef Order 2nd Class (ÖFJ2) and the Ottoman Medschide Order 3rd Class (TM3). Although most of his non Prussian awards are not clear in this shot, the Japanese Officer's Cross of the Order of the Rising Sun (JV4) most certainly is. 
Born on 27 September 1851 at Rastatt, Richard v. Beck rose to the rank of Generalleutnant and died as the commander of the 27. Division on 27 August 1909.
Regards
Glenn
Born on 27 September 1851 at Rastatt, Richard v. Beck rose to the rank of Generalleutnant and died as the commander of the 27. Division on 27 August 1909.
Regards
Glenn
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This one was a bit tricky. The bane of identification: the Überrock!! No medal bar to cross reference and just a relatively common neck order and an EK2 to go on. This from a German friend's collection, however did have a couple of clues; a dark collared Überrock with probably red piping and although rather plain, an almost unique shoulder board in conjunction with that uniform. First things first - ID the uniform. It is dated before 1896 and most likely in 1895. Any takers on the regiment?
Glenn
Glenn
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The only unit wearing a plain non-numbered or cyphered shoulder board with white underlay in conjunction with a black red piped Überrock collar was the Garde-Fußartillerie-Regiment. Just one suspect in the frame between the mid nineties and 1908 (when the Fricke cards were published) and that is Oberst Erdmann Frhr. v. Reitzenstein. He commanded the Garde-Fußartillerie-Regiment between 16 February 1892 and 27 July 1894 when he became the commander of the 2. Fußartillerie-Brigade, still in the rank of Colonel. Born 30 August 1844, he rose to the rank of Generalleutnant and Inspector of the 1st Foot Artillery Inspectorate. He retired in 1902 and died on 28 June 1922. And then a stroke of luck... I found a fuzzy liitle photograph of the General in a publication from 1900.
Regards
Glenn
Regards
Glenn
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joerookery
Well-known member
Armed with some basic tools that were sent to me by Glenn I have now selected a picture to cut my teeth on. I just bought it up so it will take some time to get here. I don't want to also laugh as I struggle with this. But on the other hand laugh away! I should have started this long ago.
joerookery
Well-known member
Okay I have a practice card. If anyone wants to play along I'm sure Glenn would humor you. I have browbeat Glenn to ensure he does not give out the name early. Rather, I would ask him to guide us through step-by-step. For instance step one is:… Perhaps that will help others following along. Glenn has already told me that this is not an easy one–but for goodness sakes–only five medals. I am going to send this around on Flickr perhaps the crowd there will want to take this lesson. I know I do and I will be glad to make the public rear end of myself as I flail on this.
ps2091 by joerookery, on Flickr
ps2091b by joerookery, on Flickr
ps2091 by joerookery, on Flickr
ps2091b by joerookery, on Flickr
Joe,
first thing first. We know it is after 1896 as he is wearing the 25 year commemorative oakleaf on his Prussian Iron Cross 2nd Class. However, the next decoration next to the EK2 is not Prussian which is a significant clue. Although the detail is a little blurry, If you can identify that decoration, you are well on your way.
Regards
Glenn
first thing first. We know it is after 1896 as he is wearing the 25 year commemorative oakleaf on his Prussian Iron Cross 2nd Class. However, the next decoration next to the EK2 is not Prussian which is a significant clue. Although the detail is a little blurry, If you can identify that decoration, you are well on your way.
Regards
Glenn
joerookery
Well-known member
Okay this is harder than I thought. But I am undeterred. I thought I was such a brilliant guy when I could recognize the 25 year commemorative Oak leaf. but right now the next one has me stymied. Please do not tell me what it is. My very 1st thought was that it was the Bavarian Military Merit Cross. But that cannot be right as I believe these were for enlisted soldiers and the ribbon is wrong. So then I started looking at this thread from GMIC http://gmic.co.uk/index.php/topic/798-common-abreviations-for-imperial-medals-orders/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Oh my goodness there are 1 million of them! Okay so the 1st thing you can point me towards is an online medal recognition site. There must be somewhere where there are pictures of all of these different kinds of medals. Now there is the page in the Rangliste that has sort of drawings of the different medals though I find that to be pretty weak. So where is the best place to look? This may not be easy but I am already learning something. :-({|=
Oh my goodness there are 1 million of them! Okay so the 1st thing you can point me towards is an online medal recognition site. There must be somewhere where there are pictures of all of these different kinds of medals. Now there is the page in the Rangliste that has sort of drawings of the different medals though I find that to be pretty weak. So where is the best place to look? This may not be easy but I am already learning something. :-({|=
Joe,
Glenn's rule of thumb for Identification of a senior officer Number 1: Discounting the Iron Cross 2nd Class on the medal bar, if the first award is not Prussian, then in all likelihood he is not Prussian. The award is clearly not a Red Eagle or Crown Order nor is it a Hohenzollern House Order, Red Cross Medal or Centenary Medal. In fact, it is one of these:
If you do not have the books on orders, one way is to simply google the German names of the orders from the Army List and usually you will be treated to an image of the order which you can then name and save for future reference. The tiny little symbols denoting the orders in the army lists are just that. You cannot really use them to ID a decoration.
Regards
Glenn
Glenn's rule of thumb for Identification of a senior officer Number 1: Discounting the Iron Cross 2nd Class on the medal bar, if the first award is not Prussian, then in all likelihood he is not Prussian. The award is clearly not a Red Eagle or Crown Order nor is it a Hohenzollern House Order, Red Cross Medal or Centenary Medal. In fact, it is one of these:
If you do not have the books on orders, one way is to simply google the German names of the orders from the Army List and usually you will be treated to an image of the order which you can then name and save for future reference. The tiny little symbols denoting the orders in the army lists are just that. You cannot really use them to ID a decoration.
Regards
Glenn
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joerookery
Well-known member
Okay it is a SV = Verdienst Order from Saxony. but I have been unable to determine which of the 5 classes. I am still looking. The good news is I seem to have found a site that shows the medals. http://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/deutsche-staaten" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
but I do not seem to be able to find a good search that tells me of the 5 classes. So this guy Saxon. do you have any idea how long I would have flailed around if you had not pointed me to this. This method is working out very well at least for me.
but I do not seem to be able to find a good search that tells me of the 5 classes. So this guy Saxon. do you have any idea how long I would have flailed around if you had not pointed me to this. This method is working out very well at least for me.
reservist1
Member
http://www.gietl-verlag.de" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
At the above site type Orden into the search field, go to the second page and click on Deutsche Orden und Ehrenzeichen 1800 - 1945, by Jorg Nimmergut.
At the above site type Orden into the search field, go to the second page and click on Deutsche Orden und Ehrenzeichen 1800 - 1945, by Jorg Nimmergut.
Joe,
As your guy does not fit this criteria, he had to be Bavarian, Saxon or a Württemberger. You have now successfully identified the primary decoration on his medal bar and with regards to class, most German orders worn on the bar are of the grade of a Knight's Cross 1st or 2nd Class which confusingly can be the 3rd, 4th or 5th Class of an order. A 2nd Class order (usually a commander's grade is worn at the throat and on more formal occasions is accompanied by a breast order. The 1st Class (Grand Cross), usually an even larger variant is also worn at the throat and has an accompanying sash order.
The site you have linked to is very useful and on the 6th page dealing with Saxony it shows the Order of Merit in the class we need albeit with swords.
There is a slight anomaly with this officer's medal bar; all his Saxon Orders and Decorations should be in a row but a non Saxon order precedes his 25 years Long Service Cross. Naughty tailor!! [-X Clue: There is a Prussian Order in there.
Having sorted that out, the next step is to determine his arm of service and that I hope should be relatively painless.
The identifying of the orders can only come with practice. Some are immediately and unmistakenly recognisable such as a Zähringer Lion or an Austro-Hungarian Iron Crown for example. Others can be a bit trickier! You would have got there in the end.
Regards
Glenn
Excellent. Lesson so far: A Prussian Infantry Regimental commander will invariably have at the very least, a Red Eagle 4th class, Crown Order 3rd Class and a 25 years Long Service Decoration. In Prussian Rangliste speak this is denoted as follows:
As your guy does not fit this criteria, he had to be Bavarian, Saxon or a Württemberger. You have now successfully identified the primary decoration on his medal bar and with regards to class, most German orders worn on the bar are of the grade of a Knight's Cross 1st or 2nd Class which confusingly can be the 3rd, 4th or 5th Class of an order. A 2nd Class order (usually a commander's grade is worn at the throat and on more formal occasions is accompanied by a breast order. The 1st Class (Grand Cross), usually an even larger variant is also worn at the throat and has an accompanying sash order.
The site you have linked to is very useful and on the 6th page dealing with Saxony it shows the Order of Merit in the class we need albeit with swords.
There is a slight anomaly with this officer's medal bar; all his Saxon Orders and Decorations should be in a row but a non Saxon order precedes his 25 years Long Service Cross. Naughty tailor!! [-X Clue: There is a Prussian Order in there.
Having sorted that out, the next step is to determine his arm of service and that I hope should be relatively painless.
The identifying of the orders can only come with practice. Some are immediately and unmistakenly recognisable such as a Zähringer Lion or an Austro-Hungarian Iron Crown for example. Others can be a bit trickier! You would have got there in the end.
Regards
Glenn
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joerookery
Well-known member
Maybe it is sorted out for you. But if I'm tracking this correctly This is the Verdienstorden Ritterkreuz 1.Klasse. Which would make the abbreviation SV1 is that correct?
R1 thank you for the tip. Got to order that– I am getting sucked in–willingly!–!
So if he has normally a 25 year long service medal I need to identify that one next. The one on the far right is his campaign medal for the Franco-Prussian war with 4 clasps yes?
R1 thank you for the tip. Got to order that– I am getting sucked in–willingly!–!
So if he has normally a 25 year long service medal I need to identify that one next. The one on the far right is his campaign medal for the Franco-Prussian war with 4 clasps yes?
Joe,
Not quite. If you were looking in a Prussian Army List the abbreviation would be SV3a
SV1 = Großkreuz
SV2a = Komturkreuz 1. Klasse
SV2b = Komturkreuz 2. Klasse
SV3a = Ritterkreuz 1. Klasse
SV3b = Ritterkreuz 2. Klasse
SV4 = Verdienstkreuz
But...remember; we are now looking for a Saxon Officer who we will find in the Saxon Army List and you will find the abbreviations in there a little different: There the abbreviation is VR1
Regards
Glenn
Not quite. If you were looking in a Prussian Army List the abbreviation would be SV3a
SV1 = Großkreuz
SV2a = Komturkreuz 1. Klasse
SV2b = Komturkreuz 2. Klasse
SV3a = Ritterkreuz 1. Klasse
SV3b = Ritterkreuz 2. Klasse
SV4 = Verdienstkreuz
But...remember; we are now looking for a Saxon Officer who we will find in the Saxon Army List and you will find the abbreviations in there a little different: There the abbreviation is VR1
Regards
Glenn
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joerookery
Well-known member
SD correct? For the 4th medal
joerookery
Well-known member
So based on the Prussian model I went to this for the 3rd medal.
Königlicher Kronen-Orden Kreuz 3.Klasse (P)KO3?????
Königlicher Kronen-Orden Kreuz 3.Klasse (P)KO3?????
Joe,
exactly right on number 4, the offices' long service decoration but the Prussian Order you have shown is a Crown Order 3rd Class which is not the order our Regimental Commander is wearing and remember to discount the Franco-Prussian War Medal; that is not listed in the Ranglisten. Any thoughts on his branch of service?
Regards
Glenn
exactly right on number 4, the offices' long service decoration but the Prussian Order you have shown is a Crown Order 3rd Class which is not the order our Regimental Commander is wearing and remember to discount the Franco-Prussian War Medal; that is not listed in the Ranglisten. Any thoughts on his branch of service?
Regards
Glenn
chrispaulodale
Active member
...great thread. I'm reading with interest....
Cheers
Chris
Cheers
Chris
joerookery
Well-known member
Still flailing on number 3 and number 5. My latest denduction is:
Kreuz des Allgemeinen Ehrenzeichens PKAE?????
As far as branch of service–there are not a lot of swords. Which makes me think this guy is not a combat arms kind of guy. I believe the key is in the epaulet. I have included a picture of his and to plates from the old Ruhl book which I ought to photostat in its entirety sometime.
ps2091c by joerookery, on Flickr
Ruhl1ep by joerookery, on Flickr
Ruhl2ep by joerookery, on Flickr
Kreuz des Allgemeinen Ehrenzeichens PKAE?????
As far as branch of service–there are not a lot of swords. Which makes me think this guy is not a combat arms kind of guy. I believe the key is in the epaulet. I have included a picture of his and to plates from the old Ruhl book which I ought to photostat in its entirety sometime.
ps2091c by joerookery, on Flickr
Ruhl1ep by joerookery, on Flickr
Ruhl2ep by joerookery, on Flickr