ukturkcollector
New member
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Identifying the unidentified
- Thread starter Glennj
- Start date
Chris,
it actually appears he was not in Ottoman service at all. He was a company commander in LGR 109 the entire period between 1902 and 1910 and was awarded the TM3 in 1905/06. Perhaps he had an Ottoman noble attached to his company or commanded a Guard of Honour for a visiting Ottoman VIP??
Regards
Glenn
it actually appears he was not in Ottoman service at all. He was a company commander in LGR 109 the entire period between 1902 and 1910 and was awarded the TM3 in 1905/06. Perhaps he had an Ottoman noble attached to his company or commanded a Guard of Honour for a visiting Ottoman VIP??
Regards
Glenn
chrispaulodale
Active member
Glennj said:
Did I hear that right? Foreign medals worn in the alphabetical order of their country, did you say?
I'm looking at some examples online, and yes, that does seem to be the case... the other question that springs to my mind is how was our green and pleasant land named in their lists? Britannien? Gross-Britannien? Vereinigten Königreich? I'd guess it'll be the second?
Cheers
Chris
Here is another guy I managed to ID a couple of nights ago. Lurking on my hard disk for some time, again I think he was on ebay.de in the last year or so. Quite frankly, he was rather troublesome!! I was going blind trying to make out the number/cyper on his shoulder boards, his medal bar seems all over the place and I could not find a match in any of the places I expected I might find him. Would anyone like to hazard a guess at his uniform/branch of service?
Regards
Glenn
Regards
Glenn
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chrispaulodale
Active member
I'm going to guess exactly as I did before- Baden. It's that Baden Zähringer Lion in first position. Surely he's from Baden this time? Litzen and cuffs could point to Badisches Leib-Grenadier-Regt. Nr.109 again- but I'm sure you're being more cunning than that... that would just be too easy!
Cheers
Chris
Cheers
Chris
Chris,
he is indeed from Baden. However he is not wearing the uniform of LGR 109 whose personnel wore a large crown on the epaulette/shoulderboard/shoulderstrap. My initial initial thought was that he was perhaps a medical officer or even another Kriegsgerichtsrat as his cuffs seem to be of a light (blue?) colour. But however hard I looked, I could not convince myself that was an Aesculapian staff on his shoulder boards.
The answer was in that strange medal bar. He is not wearing a Prussian Long service decoration but a Baden 40 year long service cross (before the Prussian Crown Order 3rd Class). After the convention between Baden and Prussia, Baden officers became Prussian officers and were awarded the Prussian Long service decoration. The only guys to receive the Baden variant were the Baden Gendarmerie and officials. And this is the reason that I could not find him in the Prussian Army lists.....he was not in the Prussian Army (at this time).
Oberstleutnant Karl Schmitt, District commander of the Baden Gendarmerie in Konstanz pictured around 1908 after his award of the 40 year variant of the Baden Long service decoration. That is his officer's Cross of the Star of Rumaniana at the end of his bar. This from the Baden Court and State Handbook of 1905.
Regards
Glenn
he is indeed from Baden. However he is not wearing the uniform of LGR 109 whose personnel wore a large crown on the epaulette/shoulderboard/shoulderstrap. My initial initial thought was that he was perhaps a medical officer or even another Kriegsgerichtsrat as his cuffs seem to be of a light (blue?) colour. But however hard I looked, I could not convince myself that was an Aesculapian staff on his shoulder boards.
The answer was in that strange medal bar. He is not wearing a Prussian Long service decoration but a Baden 40 year long service cross (before the Prussian Crown Order 3rd Class). After the convention between Baden and Prussia, Baden officers became Prussian officers and were awarded the Prussian Long service decoration. The only guys to receive the Baden variant were the Baden Gendarmerie and officials. And this is the reason that I could not find him in the Prussian Army lists.....he was not in the Prussian Army (at this time).
Oberstleutnant Karl Schmitt, District commander of the Baden Gendarmerie in Konstanz pictured around 1908 after his award of the 40 year variant of the Baden Long service decoration. That is his officer's Cross of the Star of Rumaniana at the end of his bar. This from the Baden Court and State Handbook of 1905.
Regards
Glenn
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joerookery
Well-known member
That was instructive about Baden officers but I do not think I had a realistic chance.
This one I managed to ID today. He is clearly a Württemberg General Officer as shown by the Württemberg Friedrich Order Commander's Cross at the throat, the Württemberg Crown Order on the breast and the Prussian Red Eagle pushed into 2nd place behind the Long service decoration. Throat decorations; the Baden Zähringer Lion and what is that hiding under the Zähringer Lion? - It is an Austrian Franz Joseph Order. The photograph must date after 1910 as his Waffenrock is configured as full dress; so the hunt is on for a Württemberg Major General between 1910 and 1914.....Easy. Not quite! On checking the Württemberg section of the Prussian Army List between 1910 and 1914, there is no General Officer with that combination of awards?? Curses!!
So a couple of possibilities: a retirement promotion to Generalmajor or more likely a Württemberg officer seconded to Prussia, that does appear to be a Prussian helmet plate. Next step: check all the full colonels from 1910 onwards and bingo: Oberst Theodor v. Wundt (1858-1929), commander of Infanterie-Regiment König Wilhelm I (6. Württembergisches) Nr. 124 in 1906-1910. Fast forward to 1911 and we find Royal Württemberg Generalmajor v. Wundt as commander of the Prussian 59. Infanterie-Brigade in Saarburg. General v. Wundt commanded 59. Infanterie-Brigade from 20 March 1911 until his retirement and promotion to char. Generalleutnant z.D. on 22 March 1913.,
General von Wundt served in WW1 as commander of 51. Reserve-Infanterie-Brigade 1914/16 and 18. Reserve-Division in 1916/17.
Regards
Glenn
So a couple of possibilities: a retirement promotion to Generalmajor or more likely a Württemberg officer seconded to Prussia, that does appear to be a Prussian helmet plate. Next step: check all the full colonels from 1910 onwards and bingo: Oberst Theodor v. Wundt (1858-1929), commander of Infanterie-Regiment König Wilhelm I (6. Württembergisches) Nr. 124 in 1906-1910. Fast forward to 1911 and we find Royal Württemberg Generalmajor v. Wundt as commander of the Prussian 59. Infanterie-Brigade in Saarburg. General v. Wundt commanded 59. Infanterie-Brigade from 20 March 1911 until his retirement and promotion to char. Generalleutnant z.D. on 22 March 1913.,
General von Wundt served in WW1 as commander of 51. Reserve-Infanterie-Brigade 1914/16 and 18. Reserve-Division in 1916/17.
Regards
Glenn
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joerookery
Well-known member
Not only a Prussian brigade but a Prussian general's helmet.
Joe,
indeed, and in fact I only took that on board shortly before your post! I just checked the Bekleidungsvorschrift für Offiziere... of 1911 and that quite explicitly regulates that Prussian General officers and General Staff officers seconded to Württemberg wear Württemberg uniform and conversely Württemberg General officers and General Staff officers seconded to Prussia wear Prussian Uniform. Medal bars, however, seem to be a different proposition as (in this case) General v. Wundt wears his awards in the Württemberg order of precedence.
Regards
Glenn
indeed, and in fact I only took that on board shortly before your post! I just checked the Bekleidungsvorschrift für Offiziere... of 1911 and that quite explicitly regulates that Prussian General officers and General Staff officers seconded to Württemberg wear Württemberg uniform and conversely Württemberg General officers and General Staff officers seconded to Prussia wear Prussian Uniform. Medal bars, however, seem to be a different proposition as (in this case) General v. Wundt wears his awards in the Württemberg order of precedence.
Regards
Glenn
joerookery
Well-known member
This brings up an entirely different set of questions. I do not have the one from 1911. I have one from 1896, and in 1903. They are different About certain items. For instance the lack of an air vent on the spine of a field artillery helmet is noted in the 1903 version but not in the 1896 version. I also just picked up the Annex for April 1916 which shows the officers M 15 type helmet with a wonderful picture but the text is a function of “ striking and adding” different sentences.
So here is my question. Which one do you use Or do you change by year depending upon what you need? How many do you have? They were not annual were they?
Hi Joe,
No they were not published annually. I understand they were published in 1895/96 with a major revision in 1911. I have both the 1895 and 1911 which I refer to as necessary. When you say 1903, do you mean the soldiers' version as I was not aware that a set of Prussian officers' dress regulations were published in that year.
Did you get that 1916 Annex off German ebay? I had a look at that.
Regards
Glenn
No they were not published annually. I understand they were published in 1895/96 with a major revision in 1911. I have both the 1895 and 1911 which I refer to as necessary. When you say 1903, do you mean the soldiers' version as I was not aware that a set of Prussian officers' dress regulations were published in that year.
Did you get that 1916 Annex off German ebay? I had a look at that.
Regards
Glenn
joerookery
Well-known member
Yes indeed it is the man's version. That explains no doubt many of the differences. I did buy the Annex from German ebay.
now I have to find that one from 1911!
now I have to find that one from 1911!
joerookery
Well-known member
joerookery
Well-known member
Albrechtsorden Ritterkreuz 1.Klasse mit Schwerter (2. Form)
SA1X
DA
RAO4
KO2
The Prussian breast star has me flumexed!
Hi Joe,
good going, although the Saxon Albrecht Order Knight's Cross our subject is wearing does not have the swords. The Crown Order is a 3rd Class. You will struggle trying to find a Prussian breast star of the type he is wearing, or any German breast star for that matter. :-" This order is really what makes our subject here interesting and for that matter indentifiable.
Regards
Glenn
P.S. Go back to the beginning of this thread and you will see another guy wearing one of these.
good going, although the Saxon Albrecht Order Knight's Cross our subject is wearing does not have the swords. The Crown Order is a 3rd Class. You will struggle trying to find a Prussian breast star of the type he is wearing, or any German breast star for that matter. :-" This order is really what makes our subject here interesting and for that matter indentifiable.
Regards
Glenn
P.S. Go back to the beginning of this thread and you will see another guy wearing one of these.
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joerookery
Well-known member
While thanks to you and your hint I have pretty much determined that it is Spanish but no idea which order.
Joe,
even with the knowledge that it is Spanish (it is a Military Merit Order), I assume you have tied down his contingent and have a rough idea of the date, you are now in a very good position to ID him.
Here is how the decorations would be listed in a Prussian amd Saxon Army list respectively
SA3a
SDK (Long Service Decoration)
RAO4
KO3
SMV2
AR1
DAK
PRA4
PK3
SpMV2
Regards
Glenn
even with the knowledge that it is Spanish (it is a Military Merit Order), I assume you have tied down his contingent and have a rough idea of the date, you are now in a very good position to ID him.
Here is how the decorations would be listed in a Prussian amd Saxon Army list respectively
SA3a
SDK (Long Service Decoration)
RAO4
KO3
SMV2
AR1
DAK
PRA4
PK3
SpMV2
Regards
Glenn