Identifying the unidentified

Hi Joe,

don't get hung up about a lack of swords; we are talking about a guy serving at least twenty five years after the cessation of the Franco-Prussian War. There was not much scope for guys to be awarded combat awards in the Saxon Army at this time. We certainly know this guy is not any type of Saxon cavalry officer nor Field Artillery or Train (no pouch belts). We also know he does not belong to either GR 100 or GR 101 (no Litzen) or to SR 108 or the then three extant Saxon Jäger-Bataillonen. Remember the caption at the bottom of the Fricke card: "Generals and Regimental Commanders" - so he will not be Staff Officer, Landwehrbezirkskommandeur or anything obscure.

Another tip: there will always be the occasions when it is difficult, if not nearly impossible to ID a decoration from a blurry photograph. That being the case, go with the ones you can positvely ID and try to narrow down some suspects from those. Armed with a suspect who has the decorations you can identify, his entry in the Army List will give you a hint of the missing ones you can then look up for comparison. Don't worry about number 5 (Franco-Prussian War Commemorative Medal) as it will not be listed. Number three is still incorrect - you need something a little more prestigious than that. :)

What do we have so far (and this is the order they would be listed in the Saxon Army List after his name):

VR1 DAK ? EK2 (an Iron Cross symbol followed by a 2).

The DAK (Dienstauszeichnungskreuz) is the Officers' Long Service Decoration.

I had trouble accessing my online storage yesterday but here is the section of the index of Orders and Decorations in a Saxon Army List showing the Saxon abbreviations for the Order of Merit:

Regards
Glenn

VR.jpg
 
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Click for large view - Uploaded with Skitch

Well I think this is the guy. You all don't see all of the prodding and pointing that Glenn does behind the scenes. Here are a couple of thoughts.

The mystery medal is PRA4. the red Adler order fourth class.
Preussen-Roter-Adler-Orden-4Klasse-1854-1.jpg


I found it easier to use the abbreviation listings in the Rangliste then on the website. The abbreviation didn't match perfectly–it was–PRA4w

I could not determine from the fuzzy picture that this guy was a colonel. I did have a hint that he was a commander which make it somewhat easier but I just could not clearly see the regimental number nor the rank.

Perhaps the biggest assist that I was given was pointing me to the correct list. In this case the Saxon 1899 list. how do you determine that?

If this is generally correct I will choose another–if Glenn is willing.
 
:bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:

Does this guy look familiar?

reiche.jpg


Taken sometime after his award of the Albrechts Order in 1899. Oberst Friedrich Reiche-Eisenstuck only commanded Infanterie-Regiument Nr. 106 between 22 May 1898 and 25 May 1899 probably retiring on grounds of ill health as he died on 13 July 1902. In this photgraph he has now managed to have his medals mounted in the correct order and as a veteran of the Franco-Prussian War was entiltled to the Centenary Medal.

In this case the Saxon 1899 list. how do you determine that?
Click to expand...

Remember we determined the photgraph was taken after 1896 because of the oakleaf on the EK2? It was just a matter of quickly skimming through the colonels in the Saxon Lists after that. I think I first hit him in 1898 when he was still an Oberstleutnant and checked again the next year when he was commanding IR 106. Of course by the appearance of the 1900 edition, he was then listed amongst the retired officers at the back of the Army List.

As I said at the beginning, this was actually not an easy one to tackle. He had nothing really out of the ordinary, but we got a break, because most of his contemporaries had more decorations than him and so he stood out amongst his peer group.

I look forward to your next success :D

Regards
Glenn
 
It will be really useful if you can identify this individual's uniform before having to look through 1400 pages of the Army List! The decorations are unique to his rank and branch of service.

Note: I have added the photo as Joe's link above no longer works.

Official.jpg

Regards
Glenn
 
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First things to occur to me... he's got a Prussian Red Eagle (or two) in first position. Next one I note is a Baden Zahringer Lion, before his campaign medals. So he's Baden army, the only Baden Regt with collar Litzen is Badisches Leib-Grenadier-Regt. Nr.109, the shoulder boards being white match that regt too... Next along his bar that I can identify is a South West Africa medal with two campaign clasps, nice! So he's been in the Schutztruppe (or possibly navy) and this photo was taken in or after 1907. Then it looks like he's got the Wilhelm I Centenary medal, so he was in Prussian or Imperial service in 1897 (not Baden), curious... maybe long time service in the Schutztruppe or Marine Infantry 1897-1907? I don't see a Baden 1902 Juiblee there either (or is it next to the Zahringer Lion and SW Africa medal?). More curious. After the Wilhelm I medal come his other state medals (non-Prussian and non-Baden)....

So he's a long time colonial service officer, from Baden, now serving in the 109th Baden Life Grenadiers?

Am I on the trail or barking up completely the wrong tree?

Cheers
Chris
 
Hi Chris,

you are certainly right about two Red Eagles. If one had the Red Eagle with Swords (as in this case) or the Crown then the original First award without these embellishments continued in wear. Technically speaking, that Baden Zähringer Lion is in the wrong postion because our guy is actually in Prussian service. Again you are right about the South West Africa medal. Now, with regards to his uniform: take a close look at his epaulettes. :wink:

Regards
Glenn
 
Spot on Chris,

a Kriegsgerichtsrat with the rank of a Counselor 4th Class. Although it is difficult to ascertain the facing colour on his collar because of the very impressive size of the Litzen, the best clue in this case is the embossed pattern of the crescent or Half Moon of his epaulettes. All military officials with the equivalence of commissioned rank wore this pattern of crescent. Senior Military Intendance Officials would look very similar on a black and white photograph.

From a Rangliste point of view, one will will find these guys on a Corps or Divisional Staff with a few more scattered amongst the various military Governments.

Regards
Glenn
 
Okay after a short break for family stuff. This is my original attempt at the medals.

PRAOwX
PRAO4
DA1
BZ3b
dswamw/2
?????
centenial
SA3aXmKr
JM4
????? Belgium? France?

I could not find anything on the Southwest medal so I'm starting to think that campaign medals in general did not make the list. Perhaps I will back into it because this guy should be very easy to find based on the Italian medal. I got the Beamte part quickly based on the epaulet but I am still at a loss as to how you determined the rank–4th class??? School me wise one!

Now despite your hint I am trying to navigate around this huge list. You may have pointed us in the right direction but it is still a very vast direction. I am on the scent! I find that the medals are getting a little bit easier as I learn to recognize them but the classes are still quite foreign to me. I really need to get the book that R1 mentioned. the name of this dude is forthcoming.
 
Here is a candidate.
Click for large view - Uploaded with Skitch

Considering the list is 1913 and he has swords galore it is very possible that this picture is taken after the war started. But I cannot imagine that the Italians would give him a medal after the war started.
 
Hi Joe,

This is a prewar photograph and the 1913 list reflects what the guy is wearing - so for a start you need both the Red Eagles plus his Zähringer Lion not to mention the three on the end.

You are doing pretty well on the ID so far and those decorations that you can ID are listed:

RAO4Xw, RAO4, ?, BZ3a, SA3aXmKr, ?, JM4.

As with most of these guys, our candidate was a Reserve or Landwehr officer as well. Consequently his long service decoration is the LD1 (not the DA) but these look very similar indeed.

You are right about the campaign medals; they are not listed in the Rangliste and you are right about the DSWA. The next along is in fact the China Medal which has a very distinctive stripey ribbon and of course followed by the Centenary Medal. That lovely thing on the end is not Belgian......perhaps something oriental. :-" :-" :-" And perhaps that Zähringer Lion might be an indication to have a peek in a certain Army Corps. :D

Regarding the ranks of senior military officials. Although it is not technically correct to say they had equivalent military ranks, they broadly held the equivalence of commissioned rank. The epaulettes and shoulder boards were analagous to those of specific commissioned ranks albeit with rosettes instead of rank stars:

Counselor (Rat) 1st Class: Generalmajor
Counselor (Rat) 2nd Class: Oberst
Counselor (Rat) 3rd Class: Oberstleutnant
Counselor (Rat) 4th Class: Major
Counselor (Rat) 5th Class: Hauptmann

The Kriegsgerichtsrat could hold the rank of either a 4th or 5th Class Counselor
The Oberkriegsgerichtsrat could hold the rank of either a 3rd or 4th Class counselor.

In effect an Oberkriegsgerichtsrat (4th Class) and a Kriegsgerichtsrat (4th Class) wore the same insignia of rank.

Dr. Karl Matschke is not our man.

Regards
Glenn
 
Well done Joe,

Photo added from above.

you are getting the hang of this! The Japanese Sacred Treasure is particularly distinctive. Richard Volley rose to the rank of Oberkriegsgerichtsrat and Hauptmann. KGR Volley had a unique set of decorations and was a good subject to practice on. Just one thing to note, he is wearing the Japanese order at the end whereas in the Rangliste, it should come before the Italian Mauritius and Lazarus order.

Regards
Glenn

Volley.jpg
 
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I am only getting the hang of this when you tell me what list–what year–and which Korps. I am starting to get some idea but still need much guidance. Thanks for your help so far!
 
Joe,

ah, well that comes with practice. If it is any consolation, I have been unsuccessively trying to identify a gentleman from a portrait painting who is clearly and definitively a field officer in Leib-Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 8 on and off now for over three years!! His decorations are outstanding including: two commander's grade decorations at his throat - an Anhalt Albert the Bear and a Saxon Ernestine House Order. He should jump out of the Rangliste and shout here I am!! Not only am I unable to find him in any Prussian Army List between 1897 and 1914, he is not in the Officer stammlisten of LGR 8 from 1899 and the supplement from 1908.

This guy proved a little easier - about ten minutes. If I remember correctly it was on German ebay last year and the subject is one Hauptmann Georg Frhr. Hofer v. Loebenstein of LGR 109 around 1910/1911. The only slight difficulty I had, was the last decoration on his medal bar. The one next to that is a Swedish Sword Order which is very distinctive with the four arms of the cross at a rather irregular angle. However, knowing that the decorations of non German countries are worn in the same alphabetical order as in the orders index of the Rangliste, it could only realistically be another Swedish order or failing that a Serbian or Spanish order. As it turns out it is the Swedish Wasa Order.

Given his Litzen and Zähringer Lion, I initially checked the officers of LGR 109 in 1905 and found two "suspects" (including Baron Hofer) with a Zähringer Lion with Oakleaves and a Swedish Sword Order. I just "fast forwarded" to 1910 and by then the Baron fitted the bill exactly.

Regards
Glenn

Hofer1.jpg

Hofer2.jpg

Hofer.jpg
 
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Rooting around the harddisk last night, I came across this gentlemen. He is a good example of a readily identifiable subject given that one has the necessary lists. In any case, the first impression I had of the time period, was that of the seventies or eighties. His first decoration is a Bavarian Military Merit Order Knight's Cross and coupled with the distinctive Bavarian Long Service Decoration that pretty much confirms he is a Bavarian. Embossed epaulettes and Litzen therefore equals a senior Bavarian Military Official from the War Ministry, Intendance Branch or Judicial Branch. Can't be too many guys from that background with a Russian Saint Stanislaus Commander's Cross with Swords, a Prussian EK2 on the white ribbon and a Saxon Albrechts Order Knight. I Found him in 1876 in the Bavarian War Ministry: Kriegsrath (roughly equivalent to a Oberstleutnant) Gustav Gerheuser, who at the time was temporarily heading up the Intendance Branch of the I. Armeekorps. Herr Gerheuser, born 25 March 1828, entered the Bavarian Army in 1848 and started his administrative career as a Regiments-Aktuar (roughly equivalent to a senior officer aspirant) in November 1850. He rose to the rank of Geheimer Kriegsrath (Oberst) and head of the III Section of the Bavarian War Ministry and retired in 1890.

Glenn

gerheuser gust gkrrat.jpg

Gerheuser.jpg
 
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