Not a pickelhaube but what an ebay find!

minihelmets said:
I feel like this is becoming personal,,, as if i have done something wrong and that I had better prove that I am right .
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You've done nothing wrong as far as I'm concerned. It's an old story with this (and other) forums, and I've seen too many solid contributors pack it in due to dust ups with the moderator staff. Please don't be discouraged.

If one had the time, one could search these archives and find countless quizzes and "whatsits." As far as I know, no one ever raised objection to them before. Personally, I find these challenges engaging.

I never would have suspected headdress of the French Revolutionary Army. The leopard skin pattern had me thinking African, Asian, and, even, Hungarian.

I don't wish to alienate anyone involved, but this thread should stand as an object lesson in fair play, personal conduct, and responsibility.

Charles
 
Wow! Pretty impressive. I actually think this is become a real boon. As far as people being upset, I think everyone should chill out-this is about collecting hats. Mini we could always use some more background on your collecting to help frame the context of your comments. I think the greatest accomplishment besides seeing these helmets is that you seem to have cracked the code on posting pictures!!!! :bravo:

Peter is a widely read and respected author, and I'm sure you can get much out of each other's knowledge.

As the forum pariah
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Chas, I don't think that is a fair characterization. I for one enjoy reading your postings and learning. It would be better received if things you wrote stayed positive. If there is something I can do to make you feel less of a pariah let me know. I certainly would give it serious consideration.

I've seen too many solid contributors pack it in due to dust ups with the moderator staff. Please don't be discouraged.
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Well said. :sunny: :thumbright:

I do not doubt your belief but I would like to see some reference material.
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Rob, I'm with you, this is about learning. :study: :study:

While there are no clear rules. This discussion, I think is more suited for the general headgear area. This is not just about Pickelhauben. Perhaps the moderators of this forum would consider moving this thread to that area.

I just want to collect research and learn and this entire line of information has been fascinating. Let's all chill out.
 
Since I was the one who had gotten a bit hot under the collar, I will try and be the bigger man and apologize.

I am absolutely interested in learning, and researching. And now that you have shown what this is, I do find it fascinating. I apologize that we got off on the wrong foot.

I still maintain that these "guess what this" is not the best way to begin a serious discussion about any less common piece of headgear, especially one that is outside the general collecting arena of the forum.

That said I did contact a couple of colleagues to ask about it, and one suggested that it had the shape of a "Light Dragoon helmet of the American Revolutionary War period." So he wasn't far off.

It is a fascinating piece, and I would like to see more of your headgear. I can even help you post the photos, since you seem to be having some trouble with Photobucket.
 
well I must say, I thank you all very much for your comments and support.
Actually I had read some similar requests or sort of mini quizes on the forum and that is one reason I wrote about the hat and left it to folks to try to find out what it was I have. Indeed I would have and did expect someone to come up with the answer. No harm meant just a bit of fun and a slap on the back for the person who may have come up with the answer as to its origins..

Anyway that's all past and gone now and Perhaps in future I shall place any queerie like this on the discussion board .

I had no Idea that I was talking to an authority on hats.,I'm afraid I have none of his books. Perhaps someone could post a few articles from them.

I shall keep looking at the forum just the same and if I think I have something interesting to say or send I will certainly reply to topics or threads. Regarding posting pics I still have a problem with posting several at one time. It would help if someone would let me know how to send multiple pics. It would be very much easier for me.
 
Oh I meant to mention, If you look at the picture of the hat alongside the a czapka(To show the size). This czapka is interesting in itself not because of what it is but if you look at the white waistband just above the lion head chain bosses.. you will notice some white flakes. This is the remians of Blanko..I would bet a pound to a penny this was done after Napoleons return for a reveiw.
This Blanko'ing of white cloth and binding trims I have also seen on mitres of the later period of imperial germany. I thought I'd better bring in something appertaining to the forum!
 
This czapka is interesting in itself
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Would you happen to know if that one was in Herman Historica several years ago? I have a friend that specializes in first empire. I think he bid on this.... :coffee:
 
No 'Fraid not this has only been in 3 hands since Waterloo The Lancer, The man who took it home along with many other items from the battle and who dined with the Duke later that evening and me. It was in the same collection since waterloo. I bet that could tell a tale or two eh.

It's amazing just holding it, your mind can run riot. especially after what they gave the scots greys,,, made our lads think too!
 
HI J rookery What does you pal who specialises in 1st Eme think about the revolutionary hat /helmet. All comments are very welcome but especially from folks who have an interest in the early french
Thanks
 
He was pretty amazed when I sent him the link. He went on on about the condition and informed me that the one in the auction was actually a trumpeters hat. He tended to agree with you about the treatment of the white material. I personally don't have a clue! I do know that his pieces have been extremely expensive-- and I do mean extremely. However, he has a large front foyer with two curved staircases. The area is like an Imperial Napoleonic Museum and I think his wife is up next for sainthood.
 
Hi All,
I have been busy, but I thought I would throw in my two bits. I like a good discussion, but they often tend to offend someone, this is a flaw with this type of forum, more often than not, there is no offense intended.
I agree with Chas, I like a good "whatzthis", but I do not agree with the comment about the moderator staff, moderators are a throw back to the time when this forum was plagued with spammers, and since Tony has fixed that, the status of moderator is of no importance, and no one sould be intimidated by comments made by a moderator, we are just members of the forum now (although I found out that we can edit our posts with out it being noted).
I have to disagree with Chas on his comment about him being the pariah, I thought I was. I am sorry that Chas thinks he is a pariah, I feel that is a title he does not deserve.
As for the helmet, The photos do not do it justice, I was not aware that the colour of the leopard skin was so strong, the colour is actually brighter with the hair gone.
Best wishes
Gus
 
Naw tried again cant understand a word about urls img etc.,.. not very computer litterate Would have to have the whole thing properly explained, you will have to make do with one picture.
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I cannot be of any help considering the helmet, but let me try to do a better explanation of posting pictures and links. Its all about the addresses.

If you uploaded the images to imageshack and want to link to the imageshack page, then simply copy the address that you see at the top line of the browser. Then in the editor of the forum, click the URL button, insert the address and click the URL button again. The result will be the address included in tags like this: [code][URL]http://img411.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=revhelmet001.jpg[/code]

If you want to post the image itself, then you need to find out its address. I just saw that Imageshack shows that address on the right side if you click an image. Copy the address in the Field "Direct" under "Links to share this image". Then in the editor of the forum, click the IMG button, insert the address and click the IMG button again. The result will be the address included in tags like this:

[code][img]http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/6755/revhelmet001.jpg[/code]

Actually you dont need the buttons, you can also type the tags per hand. Note that the tag at the end always has the slash / in it.
 
In answer to the three messages..
Joe rookery I think we were talking about 2 different things. I meant to ask your pal what he thought of the revolutionary helmet. I knew he'd like the czapka, what nap collector dosen't. Yes I remember that trumpeters which sold in hermann must be a good 10 years ago eh, I know the chap who sold it too, He still has one or two headdress set aside for a rainy day. I'd like to see some of your pals headdress. I like that period

Gustaf Thanks for the comments but i hope i have not thrown a spanner in the works, I'll learn with patience from all of you. Oh and by the way, the leaopard skin on the hat,,, it has not gone bald by any means I mentioned this before, that it is not leaopard skin,, it is painted linen, painted to give the impression of leopard skin. THis is seen on ORs dragoon helmets of the later period too

Robert I shall study what you said about the pictures and hopefully find out how to send multiple p[ics . Thank you very much ,,,very kind of you to take the time to help
 
minihelmets said:
Gustaf Thanks for the comments but i hope i have not thrown a spanner in the works, I'll learn with patience from all of you. Oh and by the way, the leaopard skin on the hat,,, it has not gone bald by any means I mentioned this before, that it is not leaopard skin,, it is painted linen, painted to give the impression of leopard skin. THis is seen on ORs dragoon helmets of the later period too
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Thanks, I did not realize they used painted cloth, but it would be one way to produce something as rare as leopard skin, as I doubt there was a large supply. I guess it is OK to throw spanners around, if you are from Blighty, but if you are from the Great White North, you should throw wrenches like like we do here (it is hard to tell from your accent).
Now that you are able to post photos, let us wee more of your collection, I am sure it is filled with things that rag pickers like myself seldom see.
Best wishes
Gus
 
Mini,

you state that your helmet is 1790-1793 and predates the Tarleton Helmet. However, Banastre Tarleton is shown in Joshua Reynold's portrait of 1783 wearing this style of helmet.

The British Light Dragoons started to adopt the Tarleton Helmet after the American War and it was officially ordered for all LDs in 1788.

I must, however, state that I don't like this "quiz" approach to presenting helmets. The idea is to present what you have with a useful description and see what comments it elicits.

Regardless, some very interesting information has come to light.

Stuart
 
Sorry Gustaf I am tring to decide what you mean by the great white north and by the use of Blighty, and I cant decide whether you mean the north of England but by your little give away "wee" and the use of wrenches to show friendly aquaintance I can only presume you mean the great white north is Scotland. Well your bang on if you worked out in some way that I am too.
E'h weel Ehm fae Dundee,, wharra y' fae yirsull? didna hink thir wis onybiddy up here wis intristit in auld bunnets like m'sel. Guid t' ken tho, thi' ehm no thoanely ane.
The hoos's hae'in a lot dae'in' tae it at the meenit,,, turnt upside doon, so ah'th'ns pit awa fir fear o'pent and pentirs jinirs an ah'th'n and fowk thit gaes alang wee'd . It's a richt ald t'dae, canna be ersed wi nane o'thum bit whut's t'be done wull be ifehve any mair say in the mettir. An'mibbe whin this is a' ower wi eh'll post sum pictirs fir y'. No got tha' much noo tho. Mibby gettin too ald and watchin the shekulls . Mibbe mair t dae wi it noo is hae'in hur gie'in is a' likes o bahthir fir "weystin bra coappers on ald sojers bunnets that y' dinna even wear and yuhll nivir see the use o'!"

But it's up wi' the bunnets o' Bonnie Dundee!
 
Hi Stuart bates . You are absolutely correct I was meaning to change that but as you see the discussion developed into something which I did not expect. Yes Banastre Tarleton did wear this style before this was worn and I and it is undoubtedly true the French took the design directly from that style. I stand fully corrected and hope others read your comment and take your word over mine for it is true.

Again regarding asking folks if they Could tell what it is.. Surely you dont think I meant anything bad by that, I myself like a little challeng from time to time . And stuart, be truthfull, and I say this to everyone on the forum,,, have you never been amongst your like minded freinds and pulled out something and said, Have a look at this,,, now what do you think that is?
I'm sure we all have at one time or another. Surely if you pulled out something unseen before by your friends you wouldnt just spout out what it was before letting them have a go at thinking about it amongst themselves. There is a great element of entertaiment to be got along with them all that would be missed BY ALL by just telling them outright.
No I cant agree with you, I think collecting is about giving each other surprises and other folks learning through surprises.

I mean to say, its not as if I was going to leave them hanging and not reply to any suggestions or replies. I had every intention of telling what it was but I was sure someone would have been able to tell what it was. So i can only repeat, I can't apologise for that. What apologise for something i like participating in myself.
Oddly In all my years I have never had anyone complain about me asking them if they could tell what an item was. Good grief! we start out in school life with questions of that ilk being asked regularly. Its just a bit of fun. All part of the charm of collecting,, anything! C'mon Stuart, Lighten up, I wasn't trying to be smart just because I KNew. I only wanted to create a little bit of entertainment amongst the forum members.

I peronally think that showing items and explaining all about them for no reason has something of a boastfull aspect to it. Oh please .,.,.don't take that the wrong way, others may do what they wish on the forum and I appreciate what they do but,., I Personally feel that if I did this that I would possibly come accross as boastfull no matter what kind of helmet I decided to show. Maybe its my personality,, For example I was in entertainment for many many years and still am when called for. However,I did and still find it utterly embarrassing to the point of cringeing whenever praise is given. I just can not accept praise Wheras some live for it.

So each to their own Stuart. Perhaps my little question was written in such a way as to let myself feel I wasn't a knowall and that somebody out there in the forum would have spoken about the hat for me instead of me telling all I knew thus taking any boastfullness out of the equasion. Yes maybe that is why i asked the question "can you tell what it is?"
 
Not to get too serious about this as there a valid points to be made on either side. But I have made my stance clear. I twigged that it was the jockey style, Tarleton, Light Dragoons etc. and it's a pity I did not enter the discussion earlier. I don't post on pickelhaube or any forums much these days. But you mention "a pat on the back" for the winner and that is anathema to me.

However, what is the point of posting something quite obscure and expecting people with not the slightest chance of contributing, because it is not their area of collecting and/or expertise, if not a form of "boasting"?

Regardless, your posting brought new information to the forum and that must be a good thing =D>

Cheers,

Stuart
 
minihelmets said:
Sorry Gustaf I am tring to decide what you mean by the great white north
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Okie-dokie, I opened a can of worms there, Actually, round these parts, the Great White North is Canada, they talk kinda funny up there too. There seems to be a lot of folks that lean that way on this forum, and they always whine about our beer (it is the only thing that protects the US from invasion by Canada, as Canadians can not survive on the stuff we call beer down here).
I fare from Idaho in the northwestern US, about as far from Aberdeen as you are.
I do not mind it you are too cheap to buy anything new, I want to see the old stuff:)
Best wishes
Gus
 
stuart_bates said:
However, what is the point of posting something quite obscure and expecting people with not the slightest chance of contributing because it is not their area of collecting and/or expertise if not a form of "boasting"?

Regardless, your posting brought new information to the forum and that must be a good thing =D>
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I am in agreement with my good friend Stuart on both points. First I'm very happy to learn about new items, and to find out other forms of headdress. I must confess that I meet too many helmet collectors who are extremely focused on one area and have no interest or patience for anything outside that realm.

And if I was short tempered it was because without going through EVERY uniform book it would have been simply impossible to determine the origin of the helmet. Hence I actually went to a friend, in this case Stuart, to say, "have you seen anything like this."

I will finally add that I was completely thrown by the notion that this might be Japanese. I see so much stuff passed off as Japanese that I often dismiss it. This includes post-WWII French motorcycle helmets labeled as "Japanese paratrooper helmets" and of course numerous sun helmets with a fake star or anchor applied. I am in the process of doing early research into Japanese headgear for a possible book... so anyway, I dismissed the hat far too soon.
 
Ok OK OK I was wrong I'm sorry sorry sorry, whaooo never again! from now on I will take things very seriously and try not to upset antbody.

Why do I have the feeling that whatever I may post, there will be somebody who will never be happy.

so if I ever post any pictues On the correct forum I'll keep on the safe side and say nothing about them unless asked.
 
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