Prussian Militär Beamte Officer Pickelhaube M1915?

[RON]

Good morning fellow collectors!
I was sent a couple of photos that kind of confused me. I was under the impression that regardless of model, Prussian Militär Beamte (Military Official) Officer Pickelhaubes had a square front visor, round chinscales and a cruciform spike base like the Dragoons. Moreover, all metal fittings except the star stud spike retainers, chiscales and small Beamte eagle were neusilver like on mine (in 3rd photo is my own M1897 post 15.5.1905 production Beamte for comparison):

 

[Sandmann]

It seems to be a helmet of an „1. Armee-Musik-Inspizient“.

 

[CLOVIS 57]

Hello Ron,
Good question...on a tricky subject. Indeed, the rule is different for a Payeur-beamte, for a magistrate, for a veterinarian etc...
Regarding doctors: golden brass color.
Regarding veterinarians: silver nickel silver color ,"zu Pferde" so cross base, square visor, domed scales.
Regarding pharmacist idem nickel sivler color, but "zu Fuß" so round base, round visor, flat scales.
Regarding military magistrates in golden brass color
etc...


Infra, a military pharmacist: silver fittings like the pioneers, but the flat chinstrap is also silver .Square visor but round tip base!!.



Infra, close to a Dragon officer, but silver nickel silver trim, including scales and rosettes, and silver line officer eagle, without the little golden eaglet (Pioneer Officer type), this is a veterinary .


Below silver like a Pioneer officer but with flat silver jugular scales, small gold eagle on the silver line eagle it is an infantry paymaster.


Ron, yours has the silver eagle, but with the little gold eaglet, so it's a paymaster. Cruciform point base, square visor, silver scales but domed, it's a paymaster for the cavalry. Dragon officer's helmet, but all silver but with the Paymaster's eagle and not the Dragons' eagle.

In fact ditto to the vet but it's the little golden eaglet that makes it a Cavalry Paymaster
This is a hypothesis (but see Glenn's intervention below).

 

[CLOVIS 57]

But as said above and as can be seen in the photos, the quality of "paramilitary" officers, not subject to a corps commander, were a bit like liberal professions. As a result, they could allow themselves a few fantasies with their private purchase Extra-Helms. (curved scales for "pedestrian", round tip base but round visor etc...) However, some rules are nevertheless respected (silver chinstrap etc...)

 

[Glennj]

I am somewhat confused to the reference to a “cavalry” paymaster. There was no distinction in the headdress of a Zahlmeister, irrespective of the arm of service to which he was assigned. The dress regulations for the uniforms of officials of the Prussian army of 5 October 1908 are explicit:

”Leather helmet with rounded front and rear peak, with silver fittings, smooth spike and round spike base. Helmet plate with scroll and F.R. and below a small golden eagle. Domed chin scales

Regarding the veterinary officials as above but with golden fittings and plate and a small silver eagle.

Regards
Glenn

 

[RON]

Thanks Clovis for the usual thorough analysis; you're making me learn something new everyday.

Hello Glenn and good to “see you” again! Just to make sure I properly understand, what do you make of the first helmet I posted at the start of this thread (my first 2 photos above)? Could it be made-up of parts with M1915 rounded chinscales?

As for the second helmet I posted at the start of this thread (3rd photo above), it's mine as stated and I purchased it back in 2008 from AOK and it came with their usual COA including the following description:
"Prussian Military Beamte Officer's helmet Model 1897. (...) This helmet was worn by the Militaerjustizverwaltung (military justice administration),
Hohere Beamte der Technische Institute (high officials of the technical institute), Beamten beim Grossen Generalstab (officials attached to the greater general staff), and other military administrative units. Beautiful black lacquered leather body with silver trim in the style of the Prussian Dragoon helmet. (...)" To which some of the esteemed collectors here had added: "The small eagle on the helmet wappen was not authorized until the AKO of 15 May 1905. Prior to that, it is much harder to identify a Prussian Beamte. (...)"

 

[Sandmann]

Glenn, do you have the appendices to the army regulation sheet explaining what the officials uniforms should look like? Unfortunately, I only have the AKO dated October 5, 1908, which refers to the appendix of the clothing regulations for more information.
My books do not reflect this 1908 rule either. Thank you for your support

 

[Glennj]

Hi Sandy,

check your email

Best wishes
Glenn

 

[Sandmann]

Glenn, thank you once again for the sent regulation, but I checked it and now I‘m confuse. You wrote:

The dress regulations for the uniforms of officials of the Prussian army of 5 October 1908 are explicit:

”Leather helmet with rounded front and rear peak, with silver fittings, smooth spike and round spike base. Helmet plate with scroll and F.R. and below a small golden eagle. Domed chin scales

I understand it as that all officials should wear such helmets since 1908. But that's not what the mentioned regulation says? By the October 1908 regulations, selected military officials continued to wear a squared front visor and cross-fitting on the helmets, but other officials wore a round front visor and a round spikebase.
Or did I understand your post completely wrong?

However, where I agree with you is that the first helmet from Ron could be from a veterinary officer, but also an Armee-Musikinspizient.

 

[b.loree]

These "Beamte"helmets have always been a puzzle to myself and many other collectors. They appear on the market occasionally and as long as they have their "little eagle" then one thought...ok Beamte but you never knew the specifics of exactly what type of Beamte you were looking at. My thanks to all for trying to lay out the details here.

 

[Amybellars]

These "Beamte"helmets have always been a puzzle to myself and many other collectors. They appear on the market occasionally and as long as they have their "little eagle" then one thought...ok Beamte but you never knew the specifics of exactly what type of Beamte you were looking at. My thanks to all for trying to lay out the details here.

I am confused as well lol

 

[Glennj]

I understand it as that all officials should wear such helmets since 1908. But that's not what the mentioned regulation says? By the October 1908 regulations, selected military officials continued to wear a squared front visor and cross-fitting on the helmets, but other officials wore a round front visor and a round spikebase.

Sandy,

the 1908 regulations were just an update. They did not introduce anything radically different from what was worn before. They did of course mention the small "Beamten-Adler" introduced in 1905. The square peaked helmet continued to be worn by those branches of the military administration that had worn it before (Intendance, military justice, pharmacists, provisions, hospital, garrison administration officials etc.). And similarly the "infantry style" helmet of the Zahlmeister, veterinary officials and musikinspizienten continued to be worn by those individuals.

To recap:

Square peak "dragoon style":

War Ministry - Gold fittings, no scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
War Ministry technical officials - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
War Ministry Senior Staff Apothecary - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Intendance - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales *
Military Justice - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Military Construction officials - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Technical officials of the Technical Institute - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Apothecary officials - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Provisions Offices officials - Gold fittings, no scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
Garrison Administration - Gold fittings, no scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
Telegraph officials - Silver fittings, no scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Clothing Offices officials - Gold fittings, no scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
Hospital officials - Gold fittings, no scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
War Treasury field officials - Gold fittings, no scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales

* Intendance officials with the equivalence of general officers' rank wore a general officers' helmet with the small gold shield of the officials beneath the Guard star. Extremely rare I would have thought!

Round peak "infantry style"

Music Inspectors - Gold fittings, scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
Veterinary officials - Gold fittings, scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales
Zahlmeister - Silver fittings, scroll, FR, gold shield, domed chin scales
Waffenmeister - Gold fittings, scroll, FR, silver shield, domed chin scales, spike base studs

Note. Prior to the formation of the Fortress construction officers' branch, fortress construction officialsalso wore the "dragoon" style helmet with silver fittings.

Regards
Glenn

 

[RON]

Thanks Glenn. I’m deducting that the 1st helmet I posted would be part of the second group provided the little Beamte shield is silver—it looks golden to me?
More importantly, did Beamte helmets come in the M1915 configuration? The reason I’m asking is because i don’t see the purpose behind a Beamte officer being able to remove his chinscales as the latter was done for camouflage purposes in the front and why would Beamte officers camouflage themselves let alone be in the front?

 

[Glennj]

Ron,

the shield I suppose could be tarnished. Golden fittings in this configuration were only authorized for the music inspectors and veterinary officials.

The officials were subjected to the 21 September changes to the officers and soldiers uniform in a supplementary AKO dated the same date and therefore per regulation yes in regards to the 1915 helmet configuration. Whether an officer or official serving at a higher headquarters in any case already wearing an Überzug actually complied with the order is another thing. Chin scales were still authorized for officers for wear without the helmet cover and therefore officials in officers' rank are included in this group.

It depends on your definition of the "front". I surmise that numerous Zahlmeisters would have have served fairly far forward at battalion headquarters and visited the companies in the front line. Intendance and justice officials were on the staffs of divisions well forward in the zone of operations.

Regards
Glenn

 

[Sandmann]

Thank you Glenn for clarification. I really appreciate your efforts, it’s a very informative post now

 

[Naprawiacz]

Pickelhaube from a private purchase of an army pharmacy officer with a high fireplace used after 1890.General corps model 1871-1899.Pickelhaube with a rectangular canopy used by an army doctor,veterinarian and apothecary until 1907.This is the so-called dragoon style. "According to the regulations for the organization of the medical service, an army order of 1907, Each army corps had a medical battalion consisting of three medical companies and twelve field hospitals. In the medical companies, chief pharmacists managed medical supplies for soldiers' dressing stations, main dressing stations and district rooms, and exchanged medical carts, commonly known as apothecaries, for what was still in use at the front. These included ether, chloroform, morphine, tetanus serum, as well as castor oil, tannin tablets, salicylic tallow and cresyl powder, and medical instruments. They also conducted water tests or laboratory tests on the spot with medical advice.During major battles with numerous wounded, they had their hands full at the main dressing station: bandages and medicines had to be dispensed, salt and glucose solutions had to be prepared and sterilized, and supplies from warehouses and, if necessary, from field hospitals. had to be organized in a timely manner. In addition, some military pharmacists also assisted in operations.Staff pharmacists and corps pharmacists, comparable in rank to captains, had to, like regular military pharmacists, demonstrate a degree in food chemistry from 1902. Corps pharmacists took precedence over staff pharmacists, but were given the same rank and assigned to a military corps location."

 

[Naprawiacz]

Pickelhaube imperial inspector (or supervisor) of military orchestras.Corps of the general model 1871/99 used until 1915. The small silver Wappenadler was attached to the tail of the Adler only by order of May 15, 1905,and was removed from the spades of lower-level officials then when they were promoted to officers.Finally, the end,the initial state in the last photo.

 

[Naprawiacz]

Pickelhaube of a junior military official in the second version with the letters FR.

 

[Naprawiacz]

The military administration was run by a paymaster, who was descended from the former 'accountants'. The Senior Paymaster (Oberzahlmeister) and Paymaster (Zahlmeister) were mid-level military officials, the subordinate Paymasters (Unterzahlmeister) were soldiers. In general, the Senior-Paymaster was responsible for the staff and the Paymaster was responsible for the management of the clothing, for each battalion or department, and the Sub-Paymaster as 'treasurer'. Cavalry regiments had only one Paymaster-Officer and one Sub-Paymaster, while Engineer Battalions had 2 Officers and one Sub-Paymaster.All paymasters had to wear their uniforms as officers. However, the uniforms of Hospital Officers, Provincial Officers, Garrison Officers and Clothing Department Officers had white cloth badges instead of cornflower, lemon yellow, light blue and red badges. The paymasters, however, had silver buttons, which were always plain (even for the clerks, as they were military). Accordingly, they had silver crescents, silver-blue stripes on epaulettes (Epauletten-Tressen) and loops on (Passanten-Tressen) and epaulettes. Military-Officers also wore a silver-blue Military-Officialsportépee.The pickelhaube had a rounded visor and a plain spike on a circular shield, an eagle on a haubie with a dewlap and a small eagle.In the last picture the promotion ranks in the form of headgea

 

[Naprawiacz]

Pickelhaube of a medical or veterinary doctor.This is the helmet that causes the most controversy.For me it is the doctor's pickelhaube. During renovation work I came across twice with the doctor's name written on the leather.