Prussian Militär Beamte Officer Pickelhaube M1915?

[ccj]

Pickelhaube of a medical or veterinary doctor.This is the helmet that causes the most controversy.For me it is the doctor's pickelhaube. During renovation work I came across twice with the doctor's name written on the leather.

This is a very informative thread and will be useful as a reference when studying Beamte helmets. This helmet just posted confuses me as it looks like an infantry officers helmet as it’s all appears gilt. I’m sure I’m missing something

 

[Glennj]

In every official publication I have read, (Armee-Verordnungsblatt, Bekleidungsvorschrift, Dienstvorschriften) the description of the medical officers' helmet is always the same: "an infantry officers' helmet" I think the issue with the helmet above is the lack of a scroll (Bandeau).

Regards
Glenn

 

[Glennj]

Pickelhaube of a junior military official in the second version with the letters FR.

Wojtek,

can I please ask when do you think the veterinary officials had a helmet without the FR? The AKO of 19 January 1863 already ordered these officials to wear a shield with the FR on the helmet. The Zahlmeister, similarly had the FR since 15 March 1854.

A couple of interesting orders are translated below for further clarification of the types of helmet worn by various branches of the military administration:

AKO of 31 July 1860: " As a supplement to my order of 10 May this year, I order that the motto "Mit Gott für König und Vaterland" is also to be worn on the helmets of all those military officials serving in troop units" (i.e. at time the Zahlmeister and later the veterinary officials).

War Ministry instruction of 25 July 1869: "The question has arisen, as to which type of helmet justice officials, Intendantur officials, as well as civil and field officials of the military administration are to use. To remove this doubt, it is to note that those officials not serving with troop units wear the old model with rear peak, cruciform spike base and square front peak."

Regards
Glenn

 

[Naprawiacz]

Wojtek,

can I please ask when do you think the veterinary officials had a helmet without the FR? The AKO of 19 January 1863 already ordered these officials to wear a shield with the FR on the helmet. The Zahlmeister, similarly had the FR since 15 March 1854.

A couple of interesting orders are translated below for further clarification of the types of helmet worn by various branches of the military administration:

AKO of 31 July 1860: " As a supplement to my order of 10 May this year, I order that the motto "Mit Gott für König und Vaterland" is also to be worn on the helmets of all those military officials serving in troop units" (i.e. at time the Zahlmeister and later the veterinary officials).

War Ministry instruction of 25 July 1869: "The question has arisen, as to which type of helmet justice officials, Intendantur officials, as well as civil and field officials of the military administration are to use. To remove this doubt, it is to note that those officials not serving with troop units wear the old model with rear peak, cruciform spike base and square front peak."

Regards
Glenn

Glenn I won't answer that question because I don't know the answer. I once repaired two doctor helmets and both helmets said doctor. One of them was called Horn. Both helmets were the same as mine without the FR. Also a few months ago, Helmut Weitze sold the same wappen with the indication that it was a doctor."To remove this doubt, it is to note that those officials not serving with troop units wear the old model with rear peak, cruciform spike base and square front peak."-As far as Zahlmeister is concerned, see in the link another one that does not comply with the regulations.I wonder where the truth lies? https://www.proantic.com/en/581535-...pointed-helmet-paying-officer-model-1895.html

 

[Naprawiacz]

Glenn I once found something like this "The visor had to be semicircular,and this was due to the dress code for Prussian military officials from 1908."-Describes a doctor.

 

[Glennj]

Wojtek,

perhaps your doctor is a veterinarian with a pre 1905 configuration (no small Wappenadler) but incorrectly wears the plate of a “non front” official such as garrison administration. Alternatively a veterinary officer post 1910 with the Wappenadler removed but still wearing the incorrect plate.

Regards
Glenn

 

[Naprawiacz]

Glenn thank you for the information.I don't have source information on this subject and I am finding it difficult to find a real answer.

 

[RON]

This turned out to be quite an informative thread. Over a decade has passed since the last time i recall discussing Beamte helmes on this forum and the debate is still on.

 

[RON]

Ron,

the shield I suppose could be tarnished. Golden fittings in this configuration were only authorized for the music inspectors and veterinary officials.

The officials were subjected to the 21 September changes to the officers and soldiers uniform in a supplementary AKO dated the same date and therefore per regulation yes in regards to the 1915 helmet configuration. Whether an officer or official serving at a higher headquarters in any case already wearing an Überzug actually complied with the order is another thing. Chin scales were still authorized for officers for wear without the helmet cover and therefore officials in officers' rank are included in this group.

It depends on your definition of the "front". I surmise that numerous Zahlmeisters would have have served fairly far forward at battalion headquarters and visited the companies in the front line. Intendance and justice officials were on the staffs of divisions well forward in the zone of operations.

Regards
Glenn

Thanks Glenn. I wonder if other M1915 Beamte pickelhaubes have been recently spotted on the market or on this forum?

 

[Glennj]

Whilst we are discussing amongst other things, the subject of the veterinary officials' helmet, I thought it may be of interest to detail the situation with veterinary officials after the creation of a veterinary officers' corps in 1910. The A.K.O. of 21 March 1910 authorized the creation of a Veterinary Officer Corps (with effect 1 April 1910) and regulated the new uniforms and insignia. The impact of this order on the helmet and cap was simple; the small silver Wappenadler was removed.

However, the veterinary officials of the reserve and Landwehr were not immediately commissioned and the first such commissioning of reserve veterinary officials did not occur until 16 June 1911. There were still veterinary officials of the reserve/Landwehr in Prussian service until at least 1918*. Veterinary officials of the reserve/Landwehr continued to wear the insignia as per the 1906 regulations (which regulated the rank conditions of the then still officials) and of course continued to wear the small silver Wappenadler on the helmet plate and cap as confirmed in the Militär-Veterinärordnung (M.V.O.) of 17 May 1910: "Veterinärbeamte tragen die Uniform der Veterinäroffiziere mit den für Beamte vorgesehenen Abzeichen und Änderungen: Kleiner Wappenadler an Mütze und Helm"

The 1914 Prussian army list contained 25 still serving veterinary officials of the reserve/Landwehr. Many retired former veterinary officials both active and reserve were recalled/volunteered for service in WW1 and would until ultimately commissioned also wear the uniform of the veterinary official.

* Here is an example of a late war commissioning of one of those veterinary officials of the Landwehr listed in the 1914 Prussian army list: One Oberveterinär (Veterinär Beamter) der Landwehr Gummer. Herr Gummer of Landwehrbezirk Gnesen was transferred to the corps of veterinary officers of the Landwehr on promotion to Stabsveterinär der Landwehr on 23 September 1917.

Regards
Glenn