Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

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Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by 09fritz2547 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:20 am

I recently acquired some very nice mitres, that is at first sight. When examining the fabrics under UV light, I was confronted with some frightning results. Here are some pictures from the interior of a M1824 mitre made under UV light. It appears that the white fabrics contain some sort of synthetic whitener. In every manual I read on detecting fake antique fabrics, I find the same description of how these look under UV light: bright reflection in complete darkness and the appearance of light green or light purple instead of dull white. Alas for me, this is the case. Does any one of you have more experience with the use of UV light.

Image

Image

Image

I compared the result with a modern woolen cloth and that gave exactly the same result as the mitre. On the other hand, a very old civilian white woolen cap didn't reflect anything at all. Your expert comments are more than welcome.

It is interesting to know that the same sort of mitres were recently described in the latest Hermann Historica catalogue as "reworked items".

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by RON » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:35 pm

Hi Johan,

I recently had the same issue with my Imperial German War Flag but the latter could be because it was washed at some point after WW1... which couldn't be the case with hard caps like yours I suppose.

More details here.
Cheers!
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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by Arran » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:41 pm

The best thing to do is compare the "glow" to a new white t-shirt. Lots of things will reflect the light or react a little oddly, but if the glow is as strong as that which you get from a t-shirt, then you have a problem...
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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by 09fritz2547 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:54 am

Well, it was in fact the comparison with a new white towel that gave me the shivers. The reflection in the white stripes on the Beutel could be explained because they were cleaned/whitened in recent times, a product like Mr Clean contains also ingredients that can produce this effect, I did the test. BUT; this can never explain the reflection in the inside of the cap and that is exactly what the second image is, the front of the cap. The first image is the back side where the white meets the red and there we have the same phenomena. Yes, I have a problem here I think. And I don't have 1 mitre like this, I have 3 all from the same source.

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by Adler » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:05 am

Can you show pictures, outside and inside with normal light please?

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by 09fritz2547 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:26 am

Take a look at items 3870 and 3871 in chapter "Orders and International Historical Collectibles up to 1918", last auction at Hermann Historica, they are the same.....again from the same source. Here is what the experts of Hermann Historica sent me:

"Yes, the grenadier caps 3870 and 3871 are very rare and its not easy to find similar items. We regard the metal parts as mostly original. The textile parts and the staves for stiffening are not so convincing. Within the next few days we will show photos of the insides of these caps in our internet catalogue, so that you can form your own opinion."

They did publish the inside pictures. Mitres sold for very little.

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by Adler » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:50 am

The ones in the catalog are completely bogus... To bad for you if yours are the same. If the seller has sold them to you as original, I would try to get a refund.

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by 09fritz2547 » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:22 pm

Oh yes they were sold as originals, with a price accordingly high. The seller maintains his position and states they are original. I plan on taking this case as an example and, if necessary, go to court or at least deposit a formal complaint in the hands of the police. This is a case of pure fraud.

Other members of this forum were equally deceived and I do not want them to loose the same amount of money I did.

The whole story started on this forum:

http://pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.ph ... sonic+hats" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I got in contact with the person whose name and email is mentioned in the thread and got convinced about the mitres, so I bought some. Never had a doubt, until they popped up about everywhere: some on ebay, others at Hermann Historica and so on. So I started digging and came up with the results I mentioned before. More reputed persons than me came to the same conclusion about these mitres.

I have little hope to see some money back, but at least I can stop this person to deceive others. I am certainly not the first one, and won't be the last one.

So if ever you want to buy convincing helmets from minihelmets, oldhelmets, pitmiddlewood or whatever pseudonym he is using, be warned and think twice. I have to work hard for the money, so does everyone I believe, and getting robbed like this is a scandal. People like this should be stigmatized and be banned forever.

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by b.loree » Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:39 pm

My condolences Johan. This guy is obviously very devious and an impressive liar.
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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by 09fritz2547 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:38 pm

More than just a common liar I think, a whole scenario was set up to launch these spurious mitres in the collector's world. In my whole life I have been confronted just one time before with an equally ingenious plan to sell rare but fraudulent items and that was some 18 years ago. At that time I was presented some very rare French Empire sabres, à garde de bataille and so on. They turned out to be parts sabres, very professionally embellished to look, feel, smell like genuine items. The guy who launched these sabres had obviously made some enemies in lets say more criminal environments and ended up as a victim of a very strange car crash in the south of France. His car hit at very high speed a pillar from a bridge and he remained silent forever. Where a great deal of money is involved, be sure there are guys who try to make a profit of it in every way they can.

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by Arran » Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:32 pm

Johan- do you think "I Wonder" and "Minihelmets" are the same person? Is he in the Northern UK?
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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by 09fritz2547 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:17 pm

For sure. The story goes further, I explain. On this forum, I_wonder posted originally a thread asking about the origin of what he called masonic hats, pretending to be absolutely uninitiated whatsoever on mitres and German headgear in general. On the other hand, the same I_wonder pretends to be an absolute expert in GdC helmets on another forum where German Imperial headgear is also a topic among many others, mostly WW2 era. Just look up his posts there and you will now what I mean. Even more, I wonder is the proud owner of 8 (eight) GdC helmets he states. On ebay, he presented these as pitmiddlewood, this was also discussed here. But here on this forum I_wonder is totally ignorant and that is exactly the fixed game I mean. So oldhelmets = minihelmets = pitmiddlewood = I wonder. Wow, a man in many disguises. And I am sure this is just the top of the iceberg. And yes, he lives in the east part of Scotland, I won't make his wherabouts public since I want to stay polite at this stage.

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by Arran » Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:54 pm

Wow, what a tangled web! I know who the fellow is...best of luck getting any satisfaction.
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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by Adler » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:08 am

Is staying polite to a crook polite to other collectors? Scammers like this should be punished... and the first thing WE can do, is making it known to the rest of the collectors and the world.
When you know his name and the other data, you should also at least file a complaint imo...

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by 09fritz2547 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:05 am

You are right Adler. Anyone who wants can PM me and I will give more information. In the summer of 2011 he visited me, friends and family in Belgium for almost a week and we visited many places of interest, including Waterloo. During those visits, he convinced me that he was a man with good intentions, so we did business. Alas, this man is without scruples and he abused completely my confidence. Here he is at the Waterloo memorial:

Image

There is nothing private with his images, since he is also on Youtube (he is a sculptor and writes plays....) and apperas on several publications.

I seem to have heard there were many mitres sold in between (some 50?), multiply that by an average sale price of 4000€ and you will easily understand what kind of money is involved. This man has no place among serious collectors. Even reputed dealers are among his victims.

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by Adler » Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:52 am

PM sent

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by edwin » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:27 pm

Thanks for warning us and this indeed quite a situation. I've seen several of this bloke's listings on ebay and as I far as I remember they are difficult to spot as fakes. Over the past years quite a few shady ebay sellers have been discussed on this forum but this chap seems to belong to the worst category.

Best regards,

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by Arran » Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:48 pm

Any update on your efforts to obtain a refund?
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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by 09fritz2547 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:24 am

It's not just me, there are several victims, big names in collectors' world amongst them.

The case has taken a serious turn since I was able to reveal a case of supposed fraud on behalf of the Scottish government, same chap involved. I can not say more since the investigation is going on at this very moment. To be continued, that's for sure, and I hope I will meet him again, but in court this time.

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Fraudulent dealer

Post by newbe » Sun May 26, 2013 9:42 am

I am pursuing this guy in court.

Pittmiddlewood now Elgin marbles.

Any information on fraudulent transactions via this forum or pm would very gratefully received by my solicitors.

My solicitors and I have spent a year tracking him down.

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by stuka f » Sun May 26, 2013 9:49 am

Is he selling the British museum now?
Always looking for Belgian Congo stuff!
http://virtueel-museum-antwerpen.webnode.be/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
cheers
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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by 09fritz2547 » Sun May 26, 2013 10:04 am

No, he just copied the entire collection.
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Fraud

Post by newbe » Sun May 26, 2013 11:08 pm

What he does is a four or three card shuffle.

With me he offered 4 outstanding items all bona ride, including a very nice guard Alexander officer helmet. After transacting outside he sent one, a poorly constructed Parts and reproduction mitre.

On phoning and asking for a refund he tells you to [email protected]@k [email protected]@.

However his days are numbered and something legal is about to be dropped on him that will not, exactly, make his day.

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by 09fritz2547 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:43 am

I noticed on E-bay that he got 6 negative scores in the last 12 months under the pseudo elgin-marbles, accusations as "thief" and "lures you..." are perfectly illustrating the person he is. How can we stop this creature from living on theft, fraud and robbery?

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by charly239 » Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:56 am

Some Parts where coulered with blood Plasma which Glowes under uv light

Regards thomas

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by Arran » Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:18 pm

With all due respect to the last couple of posters, I'm curious as to how the refund/legal action is going? Has it turned into a "class action" venture?
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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by 09fritz2547 » Thu Aug 15, 2013 2:22 pm

You seem to be missing the whole point of this thread: expensive military antiques are faked through and through by criminals and ONE of the many techniques to find out whether a fabric is genuine or not is to use UV light. Making fun of it is inappropriate, a lot of people are being fooled by unscrupulous thieves whose only motive is greed, pure greed.

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by 09fritz2547 » Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:24 pm

I_wonder if minihelmets would react the same way, or should I be looking for a pit in the middle of the wood? We all know oldhelmets can react on UV light in various ways, yet always the truth will be revealed sooner or later. Sometimes a law suit is helpful to reveal that truth.

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by Redlegwolf » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:08 pm

...
Last edited by Redlegwolf on Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by usa1918 » Tue Feb 18, 2014 10:46 am

Redlegwolf wrote:Gentlemen:

I recognize that this is an old discussion, but this light test pains me every time I see a collector pull out a blacklight--especially in a lit room. The blacklight test is useful only if one has a control--and it is not the be all end all.
I 100% agree with you, it's but one of several measures that you are able to legitimacy of the item. It was always designed, not as definitive in it entirety, but just another tool
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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by mchap » Sat Jun 21, 2014 1:06 pm

drewlarge wrote:Did they not temper swords and armor in blood too? Call in the history channel .
No... tempering weapons and armour with blood is pure fantasy.

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Christopher Rattray GOTTCHA

Post by newbe » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:16 am

Christopher Rattray

I have been pursuing Mr Rattray in the courts since 26 of June 2012.
The court provisionally scheduled a Procedural Hearing for 3 July 2014.
Mr Rattray admitted the claim.
He then offered to pay the debt by way of instalments at £90 per month. That debt would take more than ten years to clear.
He claimed not to own the property in which he resides, has no savings, shares or investments. He indicates that he is not paying rent or mortgage.
Sheriff Officers served a Charge for Payment on Mr. Rattray on 24 July 2014.
The Charge provided Mr. Rattray with 14 days to settle the outstanding debt. That expired on 7 August 2014.
Proceedings to the sequestration of his property commenced.
Once granted, the Trustee took steps to sell the property and use the sale proceeds to meet his debt and any further claims that might be submitted by creditors of Mr. Rattray.

He has now paid up in full.

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by badener » Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:44 pm

Well done Newbe!
It must be a Bavarian. They always smell the worst!

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by b.loree » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:44 pm

Congratulations....so the good guys don't always finish last! Well done!
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Further details

Post by newbe » Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:48 am

Following from my successful case it has also been brought to my attention that Mr. Rattray
has last lost a case for fraud amounting to 500,000 UK pounds, by a London Antique dealer,
in the Edinburgh Magistrates court on Monday 26th May 2014.

Yes its half a million pounds. What on earth has he been up to?

I do not know the details but the outcome is a publically issued legal notice.

Stephen Charles Wood, 6 Regent Square, London
against
Christopher Rattray, 21 Elgin Gardens, Dundee.

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by b.loree » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:41 pm

That equates to $1 M in Canadian funds. Hard to believe one individual, could get himself into such huge trouble. Obviously, he has an enormous ego, to think that he could fool people with this kind of money involved. In addition, he has just as obviously pulled off all kinds of successful scams in the past that would have fed this invincible attitude. One wonders just how many victims are out there?
Please up date this post if you find out what he has been up to in this latest court case.
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The Rat Returns

Post by newbe » Fri Nov 14, 2014 7:13 am

He is at it again

This time on e_bay as the blackhill

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/141470487641" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by b.loree » Sat Nov 15, 2014 6:38 pm

He is very good at his fabrications and descriptions, you have to give him that. Definitely a sick personality though, a compulsive liar and sociopath...reminds me of that movie The Great Impostor starring Leonardo de Capriole (sp?). God what a way to live/exist.
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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by newbe » Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:16 am

I am aware that quite few other Pickelhaubes.com forum members have been defrauded by Mr Rattray over the years.

My solicitor has already had filed two successful cases (including mine) against Mr. Christopher Rattray.

He is currently compiling a further two cases.

If anyone else, on this forum, wishes to use my solicitor, who is by now well acquainted with Mr Rattray, please "pm" me and I will send you his contact details.

He is ready, waiting, capable and well acquainted with the law.

I know Mr Rattray is keen reader of this forum as well (under the name I wonder) so he will know that a visit from Dundee Police is also immanent.

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by b.loree » Sun Nov 23, 2014 12:19 pm

Thank you for that information, Mr R has been banned from the forum for criminal activities.
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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by pointystuff » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:26 pm

The IR 92 skull discussed in another post appears in the list of items for the seller of bogus mitres...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Helmet-plate- ... 20f1a45f0a" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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He's Back Again

Post by newbe » Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:16 am

He is selling a lot of these replicas lately.

Presumably to help pay his legal fees.

He needs all the money he can get.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Prussian-Para ... 20f474814e" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by sassafras » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:14 am

Unfortunately I read these comments too late and he scammed my family as well. We sold him a helmet on ebay, he harassed us that it wasn't authentic then insisted we pay a very high insurance fee to send it back to us, I didn't want to pay the mail insurance and refunded his money before getting the helmet back thinking ebay would never let him continue on the site if he didn't mail it.... big mistake they will continue to let him buy and sell and will not let me give him a negative rating. He has stolen a very valuable helmet (and came up with $14,000 so clearly his money troubles are a fabrication). If anyone can offer any advice on how we might be able to get it back i.e. would the authorities help us since he already has a criminal record?

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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by Arran » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:10 pm

sassafras wrote:Unfortunately I read these comments too late and he scammed my family as well. We sold him a helmet on ebay, he harassed us that it wasn't authentic then insisted we pay a very high insurance fee to send it back to us, I didn't want to pay the mail insurance and refunded his money before getting the helmet back thinking ebay would never let him continue on the site if he didn't mail it.... big mistake they will continue to let him buy and sell and will not let me give him a negative rating. He has stolen a very valuable helmet (and came up with $14,000 so clearly his money troubles are a fabrication). If anyone can offer any advice on how we might be able to get it back i.e. would the authorities help us since he already has a criminal record?
Report the helmet stolen with the appropriate postal authorities!
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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by b.loree » Wed Apr 15, 2015 1:46 pm

Its a real shame that ebay does nothing and this creep continues to prey upon people. Could Ebay not be forced to act if presented with his list of convictions? He is obviously a career criminal.
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Re: Using UV light to detect fake fabrics

Post by HOSS » Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:31 pm

Hello
Creep aside Johann may I suggest your being far to aggressive in your testing, judging from the pictured blue 'bling' your holding the light too close imo. or you have an industrial strength light! As we all know all that glows isn't fake.
A short while ago I sold a W1 shirt the only problem with it was a previous owner had it dry cleaned. I'll take it back anytime, no problem. Basically you want to see as in a darkened room reflected back the same colour even under uv light covered in a blue/purple hue.
New collectors can practice around the home as a quickie here are three prs of my jeans the one on the right has been worn and washed lol! two are brand new, note the tag even from six feet.

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Meet the Master Forger Christopher Rattray

Post by newbe » Tue Jun 06, 2017 9:32 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpqbnc1Vyx8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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