Open season on identification
- Thread starter joerookery
- Start date
joerookery
Well-known member
joerookery
Well-known member
Glenn,
Thank you. I was just coming to the same conclusion on the letter one. But I was completely stumped on the first one. Too many postcards! Thanks.
Thank you. I was just coming to the same conclusion on the letter one. But I was completely stumped on the first one. Too many postcards! Thanks.
joerookery
Well-known member
Joe
Looks like a 3 possibly followed by another number (the picture appears damaged). Prior to early 1915, the Landsturm Infantry battalions just had the number of the respective infantry brigade in whose area they were formed in arabic numerals. Only following the 1915 regulations were the battalions numbered consecutively throughout the respective corps with Roman numerals on the collar.
Regards
Glenn
Looks like a 3 possibly followed by another number (the picture appears damaged). Prior to early 1915, the Landsturm Infantry battalions just had the number of the respective infantry brigade in whose area they were formed in arabic numerals. Only following the 1915 regulations were the battalions numbered consecutively throughout the respective corps with Roman numerals on the collar.
Regards
Glenn
joerookery
Well-known member
I agree Glenn. The digits just look different on each collar however, it is just not clear. The card is damaged. While I understand clearly the use of brigade Ersatz Battalion insignia via the later ones, it is not clear to me in 1914 Landsturm battalions how to differentiate visually between the different types such as mobile, and ersatz–I'm still working on it! Thanks for your reply.
Joe
I don't think you can differentiate between immobile and mobile Landsturm. They simply wore the brigade number of the location in which they were formed.
Brigade Ersatz battalions were not Landsturm formations. They were formed from companies of the Ersatz battalions of individual regiments. Normally two companies each from two regiments within the same brigade formed a Brigade Ersatz Battalion. They wore the uniform of the regiment they were formed from. Therefore one had the situation where two different regiment's uniforms were present in the same battalion.
Regards
Glenn
I don't think you can differentiate between immobile and mobile Landsturm. They simply wore the brigade number of the location in which they were formed.
Brigade Ersatz battalions were not Landsturm formations. They were formed from companies of the Ersatz battalions of individual regiments. Normally two companies each from two regiments within the same brigade formed a Brigade Ersatz Battalion. They wore the uniform of the regiment they were formed from. Therefore one had the situation where two different regiment's uniforms were present in the same battalion.
Regards
Glenn
joerookery
Well-known member
Good morning Glenn!
Okay let me put my learning hat on and venture back in to this jungle!
So we have brigade Ersatz battalions and reserve brigade ersatz battalions, and Landwehr brigade Ersatz battalions some of which were mobile. We also had Landsturm battalions that were formed within the brigade. We also have Landsturm battalions that were formed in the cities around the inspections. Now all these can be confusing photographs? Right?
Borrowing from Buche:
So now let me watch the bouncing ball!
This guy has the brigade number on his collar. Okay how do you differentiate and what specifically do you call them? Most of these guys except the Landsturm town units were likely to be assigned it to a mixed brigade. How can we tell them apart? This really is a jungle but it is something that we need to hack through. Thanks for your help!
Okay let me put my learning hat on and venture back in to this jungle!
So we have brigade Ersatz battalions and reserve brigade ersatz battalions, and Landwehr brigade Ersatz battalions some of which were mobile. We also had Landsturm battalions that were formed within the brigade. We also have Landsturm battalions that were formed in the cities around the inspections. Now all these can be confusing photographs? Right?
Borrowing from Buche:
So now let me watch the bouncing ball!
This guy has the brigade number on his collar. Okay how do you differentiate and what specifically do you call them? Most of these guys except the Landsturm town units were likely to be assigned it to a mixed brigade. How can we tell them apart? This really is a jungle but it is something that we need to hack through. Thanks for your help!
Joe
Indeed they can
Ok, lets think about this 41 Brigade Landsturm guy. 41 Brigade was based in Mainz in XVIII Army Corps area. Although headquartered in Mainz, its Landwehrbezirk jurisdiction was over the areas of Höchst, Oberlahnstein, Wiesbaden, Meschede and Siegen. That being the case any Landsturm unit raised in those localities would wear the number 41. These are the possibilities:
Ldst.-I.-Btl. Meschede
Ldst.-I.-Btl. Siegen
Ldst.-I.-Btl. Oberlahnstein
Ldst.-I.-Btl. Wiesbaden
Ldst.-I.-Ers.-Btl. Meschede
Ldst.-I.-Ers.-Btl. Siegen
Ldst.-I.-Ers.-Btl. Oberlahnstein
Ldst.-I.-Ers.-Btl. Wiesbaden
Each and anyone of these battalions would wear 41 on the collar.
A chap from the Landsturm assigned to a Landwehr brigade Ersatz battalion would have worn that battalion's uniform and not the Landsturm uniform with brigade collar insignia.
Regards
Glenn
Indeed they can
Ok, lets think about this 41 Brigade Landsturm guy. 41 Brigade was based in Mainz in XVIII Army Corps area. Although headquartered in Mainz, its Landwehrbezirk jurisdiction was over the areas of Höchst, Oberlahnstein, Wiesbaden, Meschede and Siegen. That being the case any Landsturm unit raised in those localities would wear the number 41. These are the possibilities:
Ldst.-I.-Btl. Meschede
Ldst.-I.-Btl. Siegen
Ldst.-I.-Btl. Oberlahnstein
Ldst.-I.-Btl. Wiesbaden
Ldst.-I.-Ers.-Btl. Meschede
Ldst.-I.-Ers.-Btl. Siegen
Ldst.-I.-Ers.-Btl. Oberlahnstein
Ldst.-I.-Ers.-Btl. Wiesbaden
Each and anyone of these battalions would wear 41 on the collar.
A chap from the Landsturm assigned to a Landwehr brigade Ersatz battalion would have worn that battalion's uniform and not the Landsturm uniform with brigade collar insignia.
Regards
Glenn
joerookery
Well-known member
Okay this is getting great!
I completely agree with you on the Landsturm battalions. Using 41 was a great example. Now I would ask you where you found the commandos divided by brigade and not Army Corps? Please point me to that source.
I am still going steady on “no brigade number equals Landwehr inspection”.
It does not seem that you can give a universal name to all of the Landsturm units within the brigade.
I completely agree with you on the Landsturm battalions. Using 41 was a great example. Now I would ask you where you found the commandos divided by brigade and not Army Corps? Please point me to that source.
I am still going steady on “no brigade number equals Landwehr inspection”.
It does not seem that you can give a universal name to all of the Landsturm units within the brigade.
Now I still have an issue reconciling this to the quotes above coming from Busche. I can see a situation where some do and some do not in the same unit. Am I going off a cliff?
Joe
The simplest overview for 1914 is contained in Friedag's "Führer durch Heer und Flotte". One can find the information from the published Rangliste but you would have to flit from Landwehrbezirk to Landwehrbezirk.
Not according to Kraus. He states (Volume 1, page 472) that if a Landsturm Infantry Battalion was formed in a Landwehrbezirk that was subordinate to a Landwehr-Inspektion and not an Infantry Brigade, they wore the brigade number of the unit providing the clothing (not particularly helpful!!) - Prussian War Ministry Decree Nr. 486/10. 12 B 3.
It appears not. They were known by the locality in which they were raised with no real reference to the brigade.
I don't see the issue. Busche's quote regarding brigade numbers pertains to Reserve and Landwehr Brigade Ersatz Battalions. These would have worn the numbers on the shoulder straps. Bearing in mind reservists, Wehrmänner and Landsturmmänner did not actually have their uniforms before being recalled, they were just age classes of non active personnel. They would have been equipped on reporting for duty. I cannot see that a thirty year old Landwehrmann would get a different uniform from a forty year old Landsturmmann reporting for duty at mobilization to the same newly formed unit....
Regards
Glenn
The simplest overview for 1914 is contained in Friedag's "Führer durch Heer und Flotte". One can find the information from the published Rangliste but you would have to flit from Landwehrbezirk to Landwehrbezirk.
Not according to Kraus. He states (Volume 1, page 472) that if a Landsturm Infantry Battalion was formed in a Landwehrbezirk that was subordinate to a Landwehr-Inspektion and not an Infantry Brigade, they wore the brigade number of the unit providing the clothing (not particularly helpful!!) - Prussian War Ministry Decree Nr. 486/10. 12 B 3.
It appears not. They were known by the locality in which they were raised with no real reference to the brigade.
I don't see the issue. Busche's quote regarding brigade numbers pertains to Reserve and Landwehr Brigade Ersatz Battalions. These would have worn the numbers on the shoulder straps. Bearing in mind reservists, Wehrmänner and Landsturmmänner did not actually have their uniforms before being recalled, they were just age classes of non active personnel. They would have been equipped on reporting for duty. I cannot see that a thirty year old Landwehrmann would get a different uniform from a forty year old Landsturmmann reporting for duty at mobilization to the same newly formed unit....
Regards
Glenn
Pierre Grande Guerre
New member
Good question, Joe. Excellent answers, Glenn. I am learning all the time here, thanks. 
Pierre Grande Guerre
New member
joerookery
Well-known member
And a bright shining Monday morning! Sunday activities consumed me yesterday but back into the fray!
I had this the whole time. I could really kick myself. Thank you for pointing me at his direction. Amazingly when I opened up the book it fell to the correct page. I did not even have to look for it. There is much more detail than I would have expected–if only I had looked. There is even uniform information but I am not sure what he means exactly by shoulder boards. Seems like he is talking about the metal numbers on the collar.
So then who are these guys with no collar insignia??? Not especially easy!
I guess this is the base issue to me. Looking at 1914 and not the latter-day logistical organization such as in Pierre's picture I am not comfortable with this. While no one can fault your view of the issuing [what a great logistician you must be!!], I am not so sure it worked that way. If it did, we would find pictures of the brigade number on the shoulder straps. Not sure that I have found that yet with a clear identification to a brigade ersatz battalion. Likewise, I don't think I have seen the opposite either with a clear identification to a brigade ersatz Battalion. So this is a clear vision of what I need to look for thank you for humoring me on what could otherwise be an esoteric subject.
I had this the whole time. I could really kick myself. Thank you for pointing me at his direction. Amazingly when I opened up the book it fell to the correct page. I did not even have to look for it. There is much more detail than I would have expected–if only I had looked. There is even uniform information but I am not sure what he means exactly by shoulder boards. Seems like he is talking about the metal numbers on the collar.
Yes but if you look at the major cities such as Hamburg on page 180 you can see that it is not so subordinated. At least I do not think so because there is no brigade assignment and no uniform tidbits.
So then who are these guys with no collar insignia??? Not especially easy!
I guess this is the base issue to me. Looking at 1914 and not the latter-day logistical organization such as in Pierre's picture I am not comfortable with this. While no one can fault your view of the issuing [what a great logistician you must be!!], I am not so sure it worked that way. If it did, we would find pictures of the brigade number on the shoulder straps. Not sure that I have found that yet with a clear identification to a brigade ersatz battalion. Likewise, I don't think I have seen the opposite either with a clear identification to a brigade ersatz Battalion. So this is a clear vision of what I need to look for thank you for humoring me on what could otherwise be an esoteric subject.
Pierre Grande Guerre
New member
joerookery said:
I have read, somewhere, and I really do wish I could reproduce where I read it, that from a certain period during the war (date?) all numbers on helmet covers and shoulder boards were wiped out or removed. Reason for this deleting of insignia numbers was the intention of not to give away more information than necessary about the unit to the enemy at the other side of the wire. The Germans were afraid that the enemy could calculate the strength of the German unit by reading and combining the insignia numbers. If this fact and this reason, what I have read somewhere, are wrong, please, do enlighten me.
If not, enlighten me, if possible with the day of this decision to remove all numbers from the outfits.
Forgive me, please, my vagueness about my source; I will do my best to locate my source and mention it later.
Pierre
Pierre Grande Guerre
New member
Thanks, Tony! I was halfway ok and halfway also not.
I was halfway ok and halfway also not.
drakegoodman
Member
This is really fantastic stuff. I've long regarded brigade numbers as bothersome and difficult to link to a battalion unless someone was holding up a sign in the photo - or there was mention of one on the back.
Bravo Joe and Glenn for publicly nutting this one out. Much appreciated!
Incidentally, I have a copy of Führer durch Heer und Flotte in PDF format should anyone require it.
- Brett
Bravo Joe and Glenn for publicly nutting this one out. Much appreciated!
Incidentally, I have a copy of Führer durch Heer und Flotte in PDF format should anyone require it.
- Brett