SOS B Loree Filz JzP

Hey Chuck,
I doubt that you will ever find a period photo of this helmet, but that does not mean that it is not real. It would seem that there were not many of them made, and so the chances of one being photographed is quite rare. Most war time photos were posed, and usually with the best equipment. The great thing about it being posted here, is that there are hundreds more eyes looking for a photo, Welcome to the forum.
Best
Gus
 
I think that it was probably an experimental helmet. You see many WW1 U.S. experimental helmets that the government decided not to use. This ersatz lobster tail is so well made that it looks like it was too time consuming to continue production.It would have been much easier to just stamp out a tin helmet, than to try and put together those strips of wool on the back, even though the material was cheap.Anyway, my purpose was to give everyone, that is interested in this subject, an opportunity to see this rare bird.
 
Regardless, it is certainly a very interesting piece. I don't know if it's something I would ever pay 5k for, but it is something I would like to touch...
 
Well, that is impossible because I have never been to a European military show.
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Well, than you are lucky... The one I've seen every year a few times would be the 3rd known specimen then (maybe it's the one from the European collection you are refering to?)...


There is an example of this helmet at the Brussels War Museum. This example makes two and mine makes three.
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I live about 40 km from the Brussels army museum and have visited it several times since the eighties. No such a helmet to see since then :-k ... Here are some pictures of the selection of the Brussels museum... Also keep in mind that in a lot of the museums not every item is original, just because it's in a museum.






The trim around the entire helme is the proper M15 grey steel plus who could bend it into that shape today?
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If they could bend it in 1915, I think someone also can bend it about 100 years later...


I think that it was probably an experimental helmet.
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And it's moving up... Going from rare to experimental?


Gentlemen, I certainly don't want to proclaim myself as an expert (still have so much to learn), but yet I've held a lot of pickelhauben in my hands over the years. I have also seen a lot of fakes, doctorjobs and reproductions amongst them. Sometimes I'm amazed by the craftsmanship and knowledge of the people who make them.
The helmet on the German shows is many times dicussed by German dealers and collectors and everyone I know (that has seen the helmet) agreed that it's not an original WW1 helmet.
Untill now I've only seen and heard thoughts and opinions about this type of helmet, but not one piece of real evidence or provenance. In this case is what I am thinking also just an opinion, because I also can't prove what I think. That's also what I wrote in my two former replies. So, without wanting to be a pessimist, I (and everyone else) can only give an opinion on a piece like this.
What we really need now is a solid proof of the existance of such a helmet...

Adler
 
Karel,

We are planning currently to go to the museum on 30 April on our way to Bruges..... we are driving from Hasselt where we will be with Francis. Any possibilities??
 
Adler,
I don't know why Mr. Niewiarowicz would lie to me about the helmet being in Brussels. With his reputation as an
author on WW2 German helmets, I would not question his ability to recognize the helmet in question. I personally don't want to contact him and ask if he told a lie. I think that would be rude. However, if you are so sure of your statement, why don't you contact him and ask if he had seen the helmet.As far as my statement about it being experimental, I was only saying that since no one has seen a period photo of it. Obviously there are three examples that people have seen. I'm sure that you know alot more than i do about these type of helmets but maybe you don't know as much as you think that you do.I believe that there would be no need for a forum, such as this, if everyone knew everything about the subject.
 
I will first say I didn't see this helmet at SOS. So I will offer no opinion on it.

I am good friends with Ken and have emailed him about this discussion. Perhaps he will weigh on what he said about the helmet.
 
Peter,
First, I want to apologize for not getting with you about the Zulu War items that you
emailed me about. My friend was the one that was interested in Zulu items but I couldn't
get him to respond.Secondly, that would be great if you could get a clarification from Ken.
I would not want to keep using him as a reference if he had made a mistake.Thanks for getting
involved. I only wanted to see if someone might help solve this puzzle. Chuck Robilio
 
posking said:
I would not want to keep using him as a reference if he had made a mistake.
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Probably I did make a mistake. I remember mentioning the Brussels museum but now I can't remember if I said "I think it was the Brussels museum" or if I was definate. But I do remember seeing a helmet like this in one of the museums over there. Maybe it was Vienna?

In any case, I do know of another which I saw in a collection in France in the 90s. I also saw one at the Kassel show in Germany since I saw Chuck's in Nashville. That may be the one which Adler is referring to.

I remember a flood of repro "ersatz" spike helmets which showed up at US shows in the 90s. Although being slightly different from each other, they all seemed to have a common look about them. I didn't recognize that "look" in Chuck's example or any of the other two which I have seen. But that doesn't mean it is not a post war contrivance.

Chuck's is the one which I have examined the closest. Is it original? It does look very interesting. Seems very well made. I remember complimenting Chuck with words to that effect, but I was not convinced about it enough to make an offer on it.
 
Just a thought about whether or not an example of this helmet is in the museum in Brussels- I'm no expert, but so far as I know the great bulk of what museums hold is not on display, because of space issues, research needs etc. and of course displays can be changed with stuff in store put on display and vice versa. It's possible therefore that such a helmet may have been on display at some time but is now in store. I would have thought that checking their catalogue might be the place to start? Final thought -it's not unknown for museums to legitimately sell of some of their holdings from time to time.

Patrick
 
KEN,
Thank you for your reply. Even though it still leaves me in the dark as to it's authenticity, your clarifying the Brussels issue keeps me from looking like I was trying to deceive someone. Also, that you have seen three examples, that in your eyes, could be real, still gives me hope that I have a jewel.The interesting thing about Patrick's reply is that I purchased this helmet from a person who is very involved with Museum articles. He mainly has helped Museums sell off over stocked antiquities, mainly American civil war items.If you go to his website: http://www.garyhendershott.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, you will see for your self.Anyway, thanks again to Ken and Patrick for there input.
 
Now one may wonder why would have such a helmet been produced. All other Filz helmets were made as substitutes for leather spike helmets, Tschapkas, Tschakos and busbies, supposedly because of an anticipated or actual shortage in cow hides. In contrast, abundant production of cavalry metal helmets was sustained in pre- and post 1915 versions, even though those were sometimes made in a simplified version. I was also wondering why such a well made helmet does not bear the regular JzP spike base.
The hypothesis of an experimental helmet is attractive.
 
SORRY FOR THE BAD WEBSITE ADDRESS. THE CORRECT WEBSITE IS:
http://www.garyhendershott.net" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I also have heard that theory, about why these helmet would be made of ersatz since they were never made of leather.All I can say is that metal is more precious that this wool ersatz material. Maybe they were interested in making both out of wool until they saw how intricate this process was. If you held this helmet in your hands,you would understand what i'm talking about.Also,
the inside tail is made of leather.Maybe stopped for that reason.
 
Hey Posking, welcome!

Another thought would be asking to see helmets in storage in Brussels. There may be a stash that's not on display. I worked at the Wisc. State Hist. Society and there were a LOT of Pickelhaube in storage, none on display: Typical M98 - M15, Flizhaube, a NICE Uhlan Kinderhelm, M15 Kuerassier, etc. They were fun to catalog and store as well as I could (they had been stacked one atop the other, much to their detriment :-x , I hope they're still stored right! )

Yeah, to bend metal like that, all you need is a beading mill and the correct dies. It can also be done with creasing stakes and draw plates, which isn't easy or usually smooth. It's a pretty simple thing to do, especially with a gentle curve on it, unlike the steel JzP and Kuerassier officer types, which have more sharp angles on the visors.

It would be great if this proves to be original.

Enjoyable discussion too.

:D Ron
 
911car said:
Now one may wonder why would have such a helmet been produced. All other Filz helmets were made as substitutes for leather spike helmets, Tschapkas, Tschakos and busbies, supposedly because of an anticipated or actual shortage in cow hides. .
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I think it has been discussed that the leather shortage idea is not the reason that Filtz helmet replace leather helmets. The time it takes to produce a leather corpus is rather long, but pressing a felt body is rather quick. It was realized before the war that there was going to be a shortage of helmets and they started to produce the felt helmets to fill the gap. As the helmets were decorative in nature rather than being protective, I can understand why the idea of producing a light and comfortable felt helmet in place of a cumbersome helmet such as JzP.
Also, the idea that if it is not on display it is not there, I suspect that we are only seeing about 5% of the Brussels WWI collection at any given time.
Best
Gus
 
Gustaf said:
Also, the idea that if it is not on display it is not there, I suspect that we are only seeing about 5% of the Brussels WWI collection at any given time.
Best
Gus
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Yup, exactly what I said was the case at the Historical Society.

:D Ron
 
Well, this has certainly been an interesting read...still, considering I just saw a garde du corps sell for 8k, methinks their might be better use for that money still.

Offhand, I could come up with a name for someone who could make such a helmet today...
 
I'm sure that you know alot more than i do about these type of helmets but maybe you don't know as much as you think that you do.
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Ouch... that feels like a personal assault somehow :-k ...
I think you didn't read my comment completely... this is what I wrote: Gentlemen, I certainly don't want to proclaim myself as an expert (still have so much to learn), but yet I've held a lot of pickelhauben in my hands over the years.
This means that I still have much to learn, but that I also realise that, so please select your words in a better way next time.

After talking about hidden piles of rare helmets in museums and why a helmet would be on display or not, it's still no evidence. That was the only point I wanted to make. We are all guessing and some people will have another opinion than mine or yours. I hope for you that you have the rarest helmet on earth, I really do! I hope that someone comes up with some kind of proof of the existance of this type of helmet during WW1.
This being said, I hope you can respect my opinion as I respect yours...

Adler
 
Good for you Karel-He is new and will no doubt make a good addition – I guess this forum is a bit different as there is a great deal of respect here.

Now onto experimental things – there is one catalog I have by Wunderlich that sells an experimental bicycle helmet. No picture – never seen one – no idea what the hell they're talking about. This is the only catalog that I have seen this experimental helmet on. I have never come across a catalog – yet – with the 1905 experimental models. If I am right the museum in Rasstadt has both the Saxon experimental infantry felt and the one for the mountain troops. I still have no clue about this type of helmet. :guns:
 
MY point was, that if somebody goes to Brussels, it would be worth taking a printout of the photo and aksing in the curator's office if they have one somewhere in their collection. If they do, then that's great! If they don't then that ends that right there.

I have one quesiton. The beading on the cape confuses me (I know, it's always the cape with me). The reason for this is that the replica helmets made in Germany often have beading on the cape. Here's one for sale by Prussian Glory:

http://mysite.verizon.net/imagelib/sitebuilder/misc/show_image.html?linkedwidth=actual&linkpath=http://mysite.verizon.net/vzeo7abf/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/leibkurassierofficerhelmet2.jpg&target=tlx_new&title=Prussian" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; 1st Leib-Kurassier Officer's Model

It would be simple to use an existing helmet (or parts, or two helmets) as dies for shaping felt.

Now, this being said, I'm NOT SAYING THIS IS A FAKE at this point, just that there are patterns out there to use.

I think the hardest thing to fake would be the smell of a helmet. If this smelled 'right' then that's also a point in its favor.

Also, remember that no dealer or huge collection as a source, no matter how reputable, is always 100% correct. I think we've proven that time and again. In this case the point is regarding Mr. Hendershott's incredible (and overall excellent) on-line catalog, but I found at least one item that wasn't correct in it.

Still hoping this proves good!

:D Ron
 
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