Prussian Paymaster Officer helmet

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J.LeBrasseur
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Prussian Paymaster Officer helmet

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:16 pm

This one just arrived from overseas and I am super happy with it.

Nice Prussian officer Paymaster helmet.

Everything is in great shape and correct to the piece.

James

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Last edited by J.LeBrasseur on Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by RON » Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:46 pm

Nice catch James; congrats! A similar one recently sold on eBay but with an Uberzug.

In order to understand better: Why did certain Beamte Off. Pickelhaubes come with a cruciform spike base (hence a square visor) and others like this one with a round base & visor? Any distinction there?
Cheers!
Ronny

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Post by J.LeBrasseur » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:13 pm

The way I see it and understand it. Paymaster where upper military officials so part of the military. Beamte where Civil officials so not military.

Paymasters would use the same helmet guidelines as a Prussian officer with the exception of the metal parts all being in Silver except for the small adler which is brass.

James
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Post by Gustaf » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:44 pm

Hey James, that is in nice shoip.
Best
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Post by joerookery » Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:56 pm

Ron,

Incredibly complex subject. We took a swing at on pages 185–188 of the Handbook. The 2004 reference by Stubbs also takes a swipe. Pretty complex and no simple box to place it in. :sad1: :sad1:

Of note–this area was severely affected by the language reforms. Therefore, you often see the same thing spelled different ways. There were a lot of differences by type–I think Glenn has the best handle on veterinarians as they moved to regular officer types but this is not an easy jar to open. :sleepy4: :sleepy4:
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Post by RON » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:17 pm

Well here's the one that recently sold on eBay which was briefly discussed in a previous thread:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Original-PICKELHAUB ... 3f0a2347cd

It's quite similar except for the stars which seem to be brass...
Cheers!
Ronny

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Post by joerookery » Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:37 pm

Unidentified Prussian Beamte The small eagle on the helmet plate was not authorized until the AKO of 15 May 1905. Prior to that, it is much harder to identify a Beamte.

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ps1135 by joerookery, on Flickr
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Post by RON » Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:59 am

Hey Joe, what would the below be then?
To my knowledge, this is an M1897 Officer Beamte and it has both the big & little birds... Does this mean the little bird was added afterwards or that the entire haube is post 1897 production? (note the cruciform spike base and the square visor, same as in your photo)
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Last edited by RON on Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Cheers!
Ronny

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Post by joerookery » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:27 am

Ron,

I don't know. I believe the 1897 number is a model number. Whether the little bird was an add-on after 1905 to an older helmet or not… I just don't know. :scratch:
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Militärbeamte

Post by Glennj » Thu Jun 09, 2011 6:40 am

As a basic rule of thumb, most Prussian Military Officials and Civil Officials of the Military Administration wore a Pickelhaube with square visor and cruciform spike base. There were some exceptions:

Zahlmeister
Armee-Musikinspizient
Veterinary Officials pre 1910 and those Reserve Veterinary officials still serving in that capacity after 1910


Regards
Glenn

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Post by joerookery » Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:08 am

Glenn,

It's good to be back however I visited your wonderful country three times in the last month. Without question the best hotel I have ever been in was in the area of Belfast in Northern Ireland! Not always fond of British food and definitely not a fan of the cost of British food. A lovely time we were there at the same time that the Queen was in Ireland. But alas this has little to do with paymasters, lower, upper, private purchase for all of the other confusing piece parts.
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UK

Post by Glennj » Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:53 am

Joe,

glad you had a good time in the UK. Everything in this blasted country is expensive!!

Regards
Glenn

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Post by Adler » Fri Jun 10, 2011 3:37 am

That's a really nice haube James!

Adler

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Post by J.LeBrasseur » Fri Jun 10, 2011 9:32 am

Thanks Adler!
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Post by edwin » Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:35 pm

Nice find =D>

Regards,

Edwin

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Post by emilysoft11 » Tue Jun 14, 2011 10:19 pm

That's a really nice ,,good find.
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Re: Prussian Paymaster Officer helmet

Post by poniatowski » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:08 am

Bump this back up to the other discussion.

:D Ron
I really do need to know more about this....

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Re: Prussian Paymaster Officer helmet

Post by b.loree » Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:09 pm

Ok, I mentioned that Randy T had photo copied an entire chapter from a German reference on Beamten. There are 18 single sided pages on Uniform der Beamten and 6 pages showing diagrams of uniform, helmet, wappen visor cap etc. There are 6 different Beamte officials diagrammed and described on each page, so at least 36 officials. The 7th page has drawings of the small devices placed on the larger wappen (like the wee eagle), the small shields (wappenschilder) that were worn on the shoulder boards for each state. There was even a Reichs Beamte organization that wore a silver version of the Reichs wappen with gold shield and black eagle in the middle.
Randy basically was kind enough to go through the pages of text and translate that portion which described the helmets worn by that particular official. For example, the translation of the "Preusen Obere Militar und Zivilbeamte der Militarverwaltung" helmet description: Helmet of senior officials were generally squared visor, cruciform spike base (trim colour silver or gold based on uniform buttons) Wappen eagle same colour, without bandeau but with FR, small eagle of contrasting colour on eagle tail. Convex chin scales, same colour as wappen with officer style kokarden.

The junior pharmacist (Unterapotheker) and paymaster - inspectors: Same helmet as the senior official (previous) without small eagle on tail, round spike base fasteners instead of stars.

Junior beamte of Military Justice and Weapons Supervisor: Helmet of senior official, no small eagle on wappen tail, rounded spike base fasteners, small heraldic shield on eagles tail.

There were Beamte of the War Ministry.....gold trimmed helmets (senior officer)
Junior War Ministry.....gold trim with small silver eagle on wappen tail
Army Music Inspector.... gold trim, round visor, round spike base, smooth spike wappen with bandeau, convex scales.
The list goes on...building inspectors, hospital inspectors, telegraph, technical and works troops......
Regarding Senior paymaster (Oberzahlmeister) Paymaster and Junior Paymaster....the first 2 were military officials while the "Junior" was a regular soldier.
The Zahlmeister helme....silver trim, rounded front visor and spike base. Helmet eagle with bandeau and small eagle on the tail.
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

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Re: Prussian Paymaster Officer helmet

Post by b.loree » Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:20 pm

So looking at James' new helme, and using the descriptions translated by Randy, it meets all the criteria of a Senior Paymaster Officer. Ronny's helme seems to be a senior officer in the military administration except for the fact that it has the Mit Gott bandeau on it. However, as we all know, there were regulations and then actual reality. I am going to email Randy and get the title of the reference that this all came from.
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Re: Prussian Paymaster Officer helmet

Post by poniatowski » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:42 pm

Thanks Brian. :)

:D Ron
I really do need to know more about this....

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Re: Prussian Paymaster Officer helmet

Post by randy trawnik » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:55 pm

Nice one James. I am very interested in the diverse military administrative helmet such as this. I recently picked up a Medical Officer which was the helmet you show but all in gold. Congrats......

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Re: Prussian Paymaster Officer helmet

Post by 911car » Wed Apr 22, 2015 2:16 am

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ANTIQUE-PRE-WW1 ... 1227519453" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Prussian Paymaster Officer helmet

Post by RON » Wed Apr 22, 2015 3:19 am

Thank you Brian. I had actually bought that helmet from Randy/AOK and it was described as follows:

"Prussian Military Beamte Officer's helmet Model 1897 (...)
This helmet was worn by the Militaerjustizverwaltung (military justice administration),
Hohere Beamte der Technische Institute (high officials of the technical institute),
Beamten beim Grossen Generalstab (officials attached to the greater general staff),
and other military administrative units.
Beautiful black lacquered leather body with silver trim in the style of the Prussian Dragoon helmet.
(...)
Large silver frosted Prussian line eagle with banner and small "beamte eagle" on tail.
Tall non-removeable spike on officer pearl/diamond on crossed spike base.
Silver star stud retainers."

And from what I learned from Joe, the small eagle on the wappen was not authorized until the AKO of 15 May 1905.
Cheers!
Ronny

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