Info Needed On Saxon Ersatz Tin

Anything hauben

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pickelhauben
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Info Needed On Saxon Ersatz Tin

Post by pickelhauben » Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:19 am

Hey Guys,

I got this tin about 20 years ago .

I am pretty sure that it has been repainted and I have posted a picture of it here but that is long gone because of the photobucket debacle.

Somebody here said that it has a French liner in it.

Did anybody make repos of these tins ?

Is this one of those ?

The spike, wappen and posts are original .

I am wondering if the helmet is too or is that a repo ?

I think that I paid about $250 back then knowing that very well may have been a repaint .

Any info is welcomed .

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Pontiac9999
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Re: Info Needed On Saxon Ersatz Tin

Post by Pontiac9999 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 11:46 am

Is there something stamped or painted on the back underside of the helmet?

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Re: Info Needed On Saxon Ersatz Tin

Post by aicusv » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:11 pm

To me looks like there is a stamp on the rear visor, top line appears to be "A. Karl Baher". There is a second line (not fully visible) all in a box. There also appears to a "U" stamped in the boxes upper right corner.
If stamp is correct that may rule out repaint. I have helmets that I owned for over 40 years and never noticed markings on them until I looked at them in a photo.

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Re: Info Needed On Saxon Ersatz Tin

Post by Pontiac9999 » Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:46 pm

Hey Pickelhauben, could we see a clear picture of the stamp on the back?

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Re: Info Needed On Saxon Ersatz Tin

Post by SkipperJohn » Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:31 pm

I believe that this helmet is good. The paint may, or may not, be original but it appears to be the correct color. These helmets had slits in the front for the Wappen, and not circular holes, so that is correct. The liner does appear to have been replaced and the rivets look odd, but other than that it appears to be a nice example.
Comparing it to mine would probably not be the best way to help validate it. Mine is pretty beat up and can be viewed here:

http://pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=10882" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The best example is the one on Tony's website, here:

http://www.kaisersbunker.com/feldgrau/helmets/fgh06.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The real truth teller is whether or not it has the "circular" pattern Tony describes, where the helmet looks like it has been turned on a lathe.

John :)

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Re: Info Needed On Saxon Ersatz Tin

Post by b.loree » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:04 am

I have a Prussian one like Tony’s in very good condition. In all the examples I have seen or handled, the liner is undyed not black and certainly no grommets in the tongues. In addition, unlike undyed liners in M15 leather helmets the liner fingers are wider and more rounded. You can see this on Tony’s helmet....those fingers are different than those of a pickelhaube. As mentioned, mine has the so called lathe marks in the metal as well.
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Re: Info Needed On Saxon Ersatz Tin

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:19 am

Here are some shots of a good one from my collection

James

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Re: Info Needed On Saxon Ersatz Tin

Post by b.loree » Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:49 pm

Some pics of my Ersatz tin. Obviously the same manufacturer and construction process. Mine however has chemically darkened brass fittings. My spike is an M95 while James' helmet has an M15 painted feldgrau. The liners are the same and again, I want you to note the difference between this style and the usual pickelhaube liner...the fingers are wider and the liner is not dyed black. James's helmet has much better markings than mine, size wise, the only thing I have left is "1/2" which is ink stamped on the liner. This does tell us though that these liners came in "half" sizes.
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Note...the small cross on the orb of the wappen is missing. The original chin strap is in excellent condition

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The "1/2" which is all that remains of the size stamp.
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Re: Info Needed On Saxon Ersatz Tin

Post by kaiser » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:14 pm

These are al very nice helmets and indeed very hard to find or define there originality

Jonas

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Re: Info Needed On Saxon Ersatz Tin

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:09 pm

Nice helmet Brian, did not know you had that one.

James
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Re: Info Needed On Saxon Ersatz Tin

Post by b.loree » Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:33 pm

Thanks James and Jonas. I bought this helmet 20+ years ago from Dave Hiorth, back in the day when he was selling out of a briefcase and there was no store . Of course he now owns Military Antiques Toronto and is doing quite well.
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Re: Info Needed On Saxon Ersatz Tin

Post by edwin » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:20 am

Nice helmets!

Regards,

Edwin

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Re: Info Needed On Saxon Ersatz Tin

Post by pickelhauben » Sat Nov 25, 2017 9:49 am

Pontiac9999 wrote:Hey Pickelhauben, could we see a clear picture of the stamp on the back?
I tried and the camera will not pic it up . Then died because of low batteries.

2 fine examples of Prussian tins guys. Thanks for posting :D

I do have one as well but the front bill is split on mine about a 1/2 inch and has no liner.

Getting back to the stamp , it seems to be blueish ink and it is in German gothic script.

To me that is kind of a red flag .

It does not have the "rings" like the Prussian helmet ( my example has them ) .

Maybe thick paint ? But my Bavarian and Wurtinburg does not have them as well.

The shell may be lagit , but at one time was there anybody making these post war ?

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Re: Info Needed On Saxon Ersatz Tin

Post by WEIMAR » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:31 am

Hi Pickelhauben

The liner in your helmet is identical to the liners which I have in a couple of Nazi civic helmets - Police and Luftschutz. These liners are Belgian and were typically fitted by the Germans in WW2 when they used anything they could utilize. The Nazi fitted ones are often marked TMB which stands for "Tannerie et Maroquinerie Belges".

I am in no way suggesting that your helmet was fitted from new or in WW2 with a Belgian liner - only that it might have acquired one at some time in its life.

Hope this is helpful and not a red herring!

WEIMAR

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Re: Info Needed On Saxon Ersatz Tin

Post by USMC-EOD » Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:57 am

Hi pickelhauben.

Just read through my post and "holy wall of text Batman!"; please bear with me. :) I did not mean to be so "wordy" when I started this...

I have an ersatz helmet made by the same maker as yours. The shell and spike are identical to yours. The only difference that I recall is that mine is painted black, has a Bavarian front plate, has split brads holding the liner in place front and rear rather than the larger rivet on yours, and has a natural leather colored liner similar to the examples some of the other members have posted.

I believe one of the members said that he thought your liner might be French or Belgian, which I think could possibly be the case. It may have been replaced by someone in the intervening 100 years since it was made.

My observations, for what they are worth, is that these are original, but made by a different manufacturer than the other ones posted. Or, potentially, the same manufacturer but during a different period, or under an earlier or later contract.

I used to own an example like the other members have posted and compared both types side by side years ago. The example you posted is stamped out differently/used a different die, hence, the lack of rough die ridges spiraling around the crown of the helmet that many members liken to having the helmet "spun" on a lathe during manufacture. My example, like yours, was polished smooth during manufacture prior to being painted. I have always been of the opinion that these light ridges on the other helmets posted by members were deliberately left on the shell from the die in order to allow the field gray paint to maintain a dull subdued color when worn in the field and to keep the paint in place during rough handling.

Another thing that jumps out right away between your helmet and the ones other members posted is the placement of the domed split brads that secure the spike to the crown. Your helmet has them in the standard form that most pickelhauben were manufactured in; front-to-rear and side-to-side. The examples shown by the other members have the domed split brads in the crown set cross-wise along the axis of the crown. My helmet has the spike brads set in the crown like yours.

Mine also has a small number stamped into the crown if I recall.

I wish I could post photos of my helmet for you to compare but I am stationed overseas right now and my entire collection is boxed up and stored at some property I own Stateside. Hopefully, Gus doesn't figure out where they are at and shows up with his truck. :D I will try to find the helmet and get you some photos posted for your use when I go home for Christmas Leave in December, so keep a weather eye out for another posted reply on your topic from me around that time or early January.

Background on the helmet like yours that I own is that it came from a very old collection of a gentleman who picked up most of his spiked helmets in the 1950s and 60s when they could be had for a song. When my mom dragged me to her ladies meetings when I was a kid at this house, this gentleman or his wife would hand me a feather duster and let me hang out in the "helmet room" until the meeting was over. I think that is when I got the pickelhaube bug. The helmet I own was one of them that I purchased after he passed. Tony Schnurr grabbed a couple of those helmets off of that pile as well. I guess I'm trying to say that if these types of helmets are fakes, then they are really, really old fakes. I think they are good, and have held a couple of others like them over the years.

Could you get a couple of pics with the liner carefully pulled up a little? Interested if there is a stamped number in the crown of your helmet like mine and I would like to see how the M91 side posts are mounted on your helmet. I have always assumed the number in the crown (I think it was an 8???) was a die number from the stamping run.

Thanks for showing your helmet and Semper Fi.

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Re: Info Needed On Saxon Ersatz Tin

Post by pickelhauben » Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:50 pm

Thanks for the input USMC

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Re: Info Needed On Saxon Ersatz Tin

Post by aicusv » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:35 pm

I have always assumed that the rings in the body of these helmets was a result of spin stamping or drawing. The same type of method used to make bowls, cans, truck wheels. In this method a disk of metal is pressed between two spinning dies and drawn into shape. If you can mike the gage of the metal you maybe able to tell how it was formed. A straight cold stamping will have thin spots (top of the bowl, at the area where the visors bend away from the body) and thick spots (the center of the visors and mid section of the bowl). Dawned metal should maintain a relatively constant gage through out.

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Re: Info Needed On Saxon Ersatz Tin

Post by USMC-EOD » Thu Nov 30, 2017 4:03 am

Pickelhauben-Just chiming in, and as I said; "for what it's worth".

I am absolutely not an expert on these types of tin ersatz type helmets. I just happen to have one like yours and saw a chance to talk a little about my observations from having owned both types. I have mostly lurked on this site to see what you guys are discussing over the years, but not really contributing. A favorite Uncle of mine has me going TAD a lot. Having an odd-ball tin ersatz like your example kind of energized me to jump in and say something. Thanks for letting me speak on your thread.

Aicusv-You are 100% correct. I had not considered spin stamping/drawing of sheet metal to explain the painted-over ridges on the types shown by most of the other posters. Your explanation sounds entirely correct. Believe it or not, I have heard folks verbally propose that these helmet shells were individually spun out of a block of steel. 'Nuff said on that...

My level of experience with variations of drawn metal and stampings comes from the exploitation of armed ordnance items in my line of work and the proper applications of mechanical or explosive tools required to defeat them without incurring a high order detonation. I am NOT a qualified machinist as it sounds like you might be. Perhaps one day when I retire from the Corps and finally figure out what I want to be when I grow up I can finally buy an end mill and a lathe and get started:wink: .

Semper Fi-Bryan.

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Re: Info Needed On Saxon Ersatz Tin

Post by aicusv » Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:11 pm

Use to be involved in the manufacturing of ordnance and other metal products. I've owned a couple of these helmets over the years, I like the felt one better. Can't think of many things worse than standing parade in the sun with one of these on my head.

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