Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

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Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by b.loree » Tue Sep 01, 2020 8:32 pm

Another rare FAdj helmet from Jim's collection, Saxe Weimar...incredibly rare! I will leave it up to Jim to post comments on this piece.
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I have to comment....the height of this spike and fine construction!! Unbelievable.
Image How tall is that spike??
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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by badener » Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:26 pm

What a beauty!
It must be a Bavarian. They always smell the worst!

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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by Sandmann » Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:07 am

A real beauty... I love it, especially the star :bravo:
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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by 2nd.Leibhusar » Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:54 am

Spectacular !!!...what a whopper !!! love it :bravo: :bravo:

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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by stuka f » Wed Sep 02, 2020 5:05 am

Wow!
Always looking for Belgian Congo stuff!
http://virtueel-museum-antwerpen.webnode.be/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
cheers
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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by SkipperJohn » Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:13 am

Stunning!

John :bravo: :bravo: :bravo:

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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by aicusv » Wed Sep 02, 2020 2:36 pm

I guess for some size matters. Too, too pretty. Great piece.
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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by b.loree » Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:11 pm

Thinking back, I don't think I have ever seen a spike that tall before, :-? . Whoever owned it originally must have been a little guy. Anyone with any height would have to duck their head going through a doorway! Although I guess palaces did have huge doorways. Awes....a premier maker in my experience!
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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:52 pm

One of the coolest helmets I have ever seen, Congrats Jim.

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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by badener » Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:03 pm

b.loree wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:11 pm
Thinking back, I don't think I have ever seen a spike that tall before, :-? . Whoever owned it originally must have been a little guy. Anyone with any height would have to duck their head going through a doorway! Although I guess palaces did have huge doorways. Awes....a premier maker in my experience!
Oh! You meant height :D
It must be a Bavarian. They always smell the worst!

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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by b.loree » Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:24 pm

An observation.....we see split prong stars with tin washers and a spike base support disc. I don’t believe that I have ever seen that combination before, usually it is either or but not both. The wappen has the usual screw post and washer combination.
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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by pickelhauben » Wed Sep 02, 2020 11:21 pm

I have a Off Wurt that has thin split prongs on the stars like that.

What a beauty of an helmet !!

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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by KAGGR#1 » Thu Sep 03, 2020 4:20 pm

Jim ;
Great helmet ! I will see if I can find anything for you .Major Fiebig did a lot of articles in Zeitschrift .I will continue to check .
Steve

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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by Steve Nick » Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:11 am

One of the most visually appealing helmets I've ever seen. The Wappen is simply stunning.

The height of the spike is an example of why the regulations were changed to limit the height of spikes as things were getting out of hand.

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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by jimturinetti » Fri Sep 04, 2020 10:26 am

Thank you all for your kind comments. I have been searching through the Rang Listed from 1900 through 1918 cataloging the Flusgel Adjutanten and Ordinanz Officers for all of the Fuersten and I have been unable to find any reference to a Flugel Adjutant for Saxe Weimar. Can anyone help me?

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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by Arran » Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:40 pm

I would have expected to see a squared front visor, cruciform spike base, fluted spike, and Fuerst rather than Koenig on the motto. To me it suggests that this is a Prussian Guard helmet with the star added...
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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by 911car » Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:27 pm

Arran wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:40 pm
I would have expected to see a squared front visor, cruciform spike base, fluted spike, and Fuerst rather than Koenig on the motto. To me it suggests that this is a Prussian Guard helmet with the star added...
You are correct. The basis for the Sachsen-Weimar Fluegeladjutant helmet was the Prussian general helmet, with the classic characteristics you have listed for the visor, spike and basis (I should add the curved chinscales; are these flat or slightly curved?), with white metal fittings, except for the golden Sachsen star. They did switch to the white Garde eagle in 1892, but of course with "Fuerst" in the motto. Not easy to make out, but it seems that we have "Koenig" here, and an enigma...

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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by 911car » Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:10 am

Here is the real helmet for a Saxe Weimar Fluegeladjutant. Now, the real enigma is: how such an outstanding expert as Jim is suggest he was showing a FA helmet? There was most likely some communication issue (Jim's books remain invaluable and constant references for me...).
thumbnail__DSC0675.jpg
thumbnail__DSC0674.jpg
thumbnail_HelmSWE.jpg

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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by argonne » Sat Sep 05, 2020 7:13 am

In the book of Joachim Hilsenbeck (Deutsche Offiziershelme 1870-1918, Band 1), page 45, one can see a period pict of a Flügeladjutant of Sachsen-Weimar, unfortunately without name.
The visor is clearly squared and chinscales rounded...As the helmet of Großherzog Wilhelm-Ernst of Sachsen-Weimar which is pictured on page 44.
And gilt fittings...

That´s the reason why I´am afraid of those "scarce" helmets and do not want to collect them without any 100% provenance.

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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:47 am

Arran wrote:
Fri Sep 04, 2020 3:40 pm
I would have expected to see a squared front visor, cruciform spike base, fluted spike, and Fuerst rather than Koenig on the motto. To me it suggests that this is a Prussian Guard helmet with the star added...
Finally someone pointed this out.
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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by jimturinetti » Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:54 pm

Bruno and Arran area absolutely correct! I was so enamored with the star on this helmet that I overlooked all of the other very important points. I let my heart over-run my mind. A rookie mistake. I should have stopped and read my own book. Oh well, I have learned an important lesson, and thanks again guys for pointing it out.

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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by 2nd.Leibhusar » Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:54 am

jimturinetti wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 1:54 pm
Bruno and Arran area absolutely correct! I was so enamored with the star on this helmet that I overlooked all of the other very important points. I let my heart over-run my mind. A rookie mistake. I should have stopped and read my own book. Oh well, I have learned an important lesson, and thanks again guys for pointing it out.
:oops: :oops: Same here :oops: :oops: ](*,)

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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by ebeeby » Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:37 pm

Thanks for sharing!

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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by 2nd.Leibhusar » Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:29 am

In the book "Deutsche Offiziershelme, band 1 by J.Hisenbeck" I found the following photos of a general helmet of Grand Duke Wilhelm Ernst himself.
Of course with gold colored fittings, but the eagle has the Bandeau with "Koenig" .... and not "Fuerst" ...
According to the text once auctioned at Kube, Sugenheim)

All very confusing ...
saxweim2.JPG
saxweim1.JPG

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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by b.loree » Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:51 pm

"Koenig not Fuerst"....probably an expression that he was the "vassal" of the Kaiser??
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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by 911car » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:08 pm

2nd.Leibhusar wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:29 am
In the book "Deutsche Offiziershelme, band 1 by J.Hisenbeck" I found the following photos of a general helmet of Grand Duke Wilhelm Ernst himself.
Of course with gold colored fittings, but the eagle has the Bandeau with "Koenig" .... and not "Fuerst" ...
According to the text once auctioned at Kube, Sugenheim)

All very confusing
Interesting, and perhaps not so confusing. Apparently, the Garde eagle with the Fuerst motto was only used on Sachsen-Weimar Fluegeladjutant silver helmets. It is said that General(s) wore the regular Prussian Garde eagle in gold color, with the Saxony arms. However, the number of generals in Sachsen-Weimar, from 1866 to WWI, was... 1. Talking of a rare helmet...
As Brian mentioned, the Grand-Duke was perhaps acknowledging he had been subjugated by the Kaiser, since the small Sachsen-Weimar contingent had joined the Prussian army to constitute IR94.

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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by 911car » Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:25 pm

2nd.Leibhusar wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:29 am
In the book "Deutsche Offiziershelme, band 1 by J.Hisenbeck" I found the following photos of a general helmet of Grand Duke Wilhelm Ernst himself.
Of course with gold colored fittings, but the eagle has the Bandeau with "Koenig" .... and not "Fuerst" ...
According to the text once auctioned at Kube, Sugenheim)

All very confusing ...
It is strange that the state cockade on Hilsenbeck's picture is green/white/green (Saxon Duchies), whereas the Sachsen-Weimar cockade was yellow/green/black.

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Re: Saxe Weimar FAdj Helmet J Turinetti

Post by 2nd.Leibhusar » Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:10 am

[/quote]

Interesting, and perhaps not so confusing. Apparently, the Garde eagle with the Fuerst motto was only used on Sachsen-Weimar Fluegeladjutant silver helmets. It is said that General(s) wore the regular Prussian Garde eagle in gold color, with the Saxony arms. However, the number of generals in Sachsen-Weimar, from 1866 to WWI, was... 1. Talking of a rare helmet...
As Brian mentioned, the Grand-Duke was perhaps acknowledging he had been subjugated by the Kaiser, since the small Sachsen-Weimar contingent had joined the Prussian army to constitute IR94.
[/quote]

That make sense.
thanks for your clear explanation ..

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