Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

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John R
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Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by John R » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:24 pm

Hello everyone

Hi all, I'm a newbie on the site. I have been collecting all sorts of militaria for many years. Mainly by my grandfather who shared the interessest and gave it on to me.

I got this pickelhaube, it is the first one i own (and only) and i didn't know which one it was. after some research i found out is is an Model 1867 Hessen Mannschaften Pickelhaube.

I tried to discover if it was a real one or not, but there is always some doubt.
There are no visible makers mark or stamps. just 2 old ''stickers'' with some writing on it. I know some parts are missing, but that's not a big deal to me.

So if someone could give their opinion about it, it would be very much appreciated. I would appreciate anyone's comments either good or bad. I just want to know if it's real or been messed with or fake.

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Many thanks

John

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Re: Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by John R » Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:27 pm

here is another picture

Image

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Tony without Kaiser
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Re: Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Fri Aug 12, 2011 8:20 pm

How about this? :thumbright:
Kaiser: 09 July 1997 - 12 October 2010.
Nina: 23 April 2002 - 31 July 2015.
I miss my little Noodles.

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b.loree
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Re: Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by b.loree » Fri Aug 12, 2011 11:46 pm

Very nice.....totally authentic Hessen haube as Tony has indicated. The first sticker is the size which I believe is 57 1/2 cm The other...some manufacture number???
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

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Re: Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by John R » Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:40 am

Thanks Tony and B.Loree for your comments, My grandfather will be happy to hear this, as am I. :D
I Think i got the pickelhaube infection now.... :lol:
Is there any important thing you guys see or look at to conclude that is is authentic?
Or is it a number of things?
I'm always willing to know new facts.

Ps: Tony, congrats with your pickelhaube site, It's the best one out there. It learned me a lot.

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Re: Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by Gustaf » Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:16 am

Hey John,
Welcome to the forum, nice Haube.
There are a number of things to look for, one of the easiest things for me to see in poor quality ebay photos is the liner, notice how your liner fits well in the helmet, and that the leather is only dyed on the outside? The reproductions haf sloppy liner that do not conform well to the inside of the helmet, and are often dyed on both sides of the leather. the quality of the stamping on the Wappen is another thing to look for, as well as the shape of the spike. Repros often have what we call a pregnant spike, they have a swollen shpe to the upper part of the spike that is quite noticeable if you look. They almost look as though the spike had been filled with water, inverted and frozen. Looking at the back of Wappen will tell if the Wappen is stamped (as it should be) cast or a galvano copy, the condition of the solder for the mounting loops should be a dull grey, not shiney.
Best
Gus
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Re: Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by Scratch » Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:12 am

John

It's a Model 1895, not an 1867. Nice helmet!

Regards,

S.

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b.loree
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Re: Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by b.loree » Sat Aug 13, 2011 12:06 pm

John, one other small thing, the style of spike is unique to Hessen helmets. No other state used that squared off fluted spike top. Your spike top also unscrews. Ordinarily, this would have meant that a horse hair parade trichter could be screwed in place. However, there were only 2 Hessen Regts that wore trichters on parade....Regt 115 whose helmets had silver fittings (yours are brass) and Regt 117 which did wear brass fittings BUT the helmet plate had 2 date scrolls attatched with the dates 1697 and 1897. So your helmet did not belong to either of these 2 trichter wearing Regts. The extra domed split brad fastener located on the middle of the rear spine is also typically Hessen. This is a beautiful piece and worth a substantial amount of money. I recommend that you go to the Kaisers Bunker web site and read Tony Schnurrs' article on the care and display of pickelhauben.
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

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Re: Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by weirdpyramid » Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:07 pm

Great looking Hessen! Those are my favorite. Take a look around the forum, there are lots a good looking Hessen helmets.

Maybe you already check this out but if not here is a great resource on Hessen helmets...
http://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=5256" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by John R » Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:26 pm

It's really impressive how much there is to know about these things, I am glad I posted my question here. For person who is new into pickelhaubes (that would be me), the first thing you do is typing in ''pickelhaube Lion'' in google......And trust me that was a difficult way to find out how to call this haube...
I want to thank all the experts for their time, tips and very detailed information regarding the haube.

b.loree, if it's not of neither Regts, does that mean this haube is from ''unknow origin"?
Sinds my grandfather gave me this, i would never give this away, fake or not. But I do find it important to know what i'm having here so what would this piece be worth? Would it be wise to try and complete him? Or can the original parts never be found? (cocardes and chinstrap). I don't see the use of adding replica parts to it now that i know it's orginal.

I red the conservation page from Tony's website, I have a stable room regarding temperature, but would it be wise (in order to store for longer period) to thoroughly rub in the haube with leather nourishment an put him in a plastic bag with a few minor vent. holes in it. Because I really wouldn't want it to degrade under my possession.

Thanks in advance
ps: pardon my sloppy English, I'm from a small country called Belgium :D

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Re: Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by b.loree » Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:49 pm

John...lets just say that it is totally original and worth $1,000+. The fact that is has a spike that screws off means nothing, it does not decrease value or indicate a fake. There are no Regimental markings or ink stamps on the helmet so we can never know exactly which Hessen Regt this came from but it is Hessen and it is all original. Regarding the missing kokarden (2) originals can be bought but they will be expensive especially the Hessen one. Original chin straps are hard to find and I have seen them sell for as much as $250 on Ebay. If it were mine, I would complete the helmet using repro parts until I found originals. Do not store this helmet in a plastic bag. The leather needs to breathe. If you read Tony's article then you know the main thing is humidity in the winter...do not place it in dry conditions. Also support the helmet do not leave it resting on the visors. Your liner is in excellent condition as is the helmet. I would not put any leather treatment on the liner and you never put it on the visors or shell. Oh and keep it dusted when displayed.
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

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Re: Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by Tony without Kaiser » Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:55 pm

John,

As Brian said. Do not apply any cream or anything to your Pickelhaube. Just vacuum it ok?

I would look for Kokarden and even buy a beater Pickelhaube if it had a good M91 chinstrap, and then sell the beater.

Here is a list of all Infanterie Regts. as of 1914.

Look down for all the regts that wore a Hessen Wappen. http://www.kaisersbunker.com/gtp/New/infantry1.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pick one. Could be any one of them. For these various Hessen Infanterie Regts, the spike top typically is not removable.

Gus; that is by far the most astute description of a fake spike I have ever read. Dead on. =D>
Kaiser: 09 July 1997 - 12 October 2010.
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Re: Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by joerookery » Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:21 pm

Tag 2 couldeasily relate this to a specific regiment RJR 254.

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Re: Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by jimturinetti » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:28 am

My compliments on a beautiful helmet. I have a couple of comments to add to the discussion. Given the high crown on the helmet, I think it dates to the 1880s. Given the removable spike, I think it can be attributed to IR 117, because it is the only Hesse regiment that wore a horse hair bush (black) for parade and had a brass colored plate. The two date banners were not awarded until 1898 to commemorate the founding of the regiment, 10 June 1697, and the bicentennial anniversary of the regiment. Given that time perod, only one kockarde would have been worn on the helmet, the Hesse kockarde, and it would have been worn on the right side of the helmet. The Reich kockarde was not introduced until 1897 and then it was worn on the right side of the helmet and the lLandes kockarde was moved from the right side to the left side of the helmet.
Regards, Jim Turinetti

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Re: Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by John R » Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:16 am

Thank you all for the very good information
I've spend the last evenings searching the web for info, but what the details you can give or just not there..
Anyway much thanks, I've learned a lot already, but if you have other info or remarques on the haube, do tell.

greetings

John

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Re: Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by kgeoff71 » Fri May 18, 2018 6:38 am

Hi All,

New to this site... my partner purchased me my first picklehaube helmet and a few things tell me it’s a vintage fake and not original.

Spike and pins wrong
Spine has no vent
No markings inside
No screws in the spine, 1 pin at the bottom.

Hopefully someone can advise if I’m right or wrong.

It was sold as a WW1 original and the seller believes that’s what he was told years ago when he purchased it.

Thanks
Geoff
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Re: Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by Sergei1877 » Fri May 18, 2018 9:51 am

kgeoff71 wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 6:38 am
Hi All,

New to this site... my partner purchased me my first picklehaube helmet and a few things tell me it’s a vintage fake and not original.

Spike and pins wrong
Spine has no vent
No markings inside
No screws in the spine, 1 pin at the bottom.

Hopefully someone can advise if I’m right or wrong.

It was sold as a WW1 original and the seller believes that’s what he was told years ago when he purchased it.

Thanks
Geoff
It's a fake copy . production India :thumbsdown:

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kaiser
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Re: Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by kaiser » Fri May 18, 2018 3:07 pm

My eyes hurt by looking to it
As sergei stated its a very bad fake

Jonas

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b.loree
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Re: Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by b.loree » Sat May 19, 2018 4:39 pm

Geoff....as has been said, made in India and up for auction all over Ebay as we speak. They have scuffed and dirtied this one up in order to make it look old and original. Please make a post here on the forum with pictures or a link to any helmet you are thinking of buying and we will gladly help you with expert advice. One of the main reasons for having this forum, is to prevent new collectors from being ripped off. This "Indian Fakery" is very prevalent in the UK!
Remember, Pillage first THEN Burn ...

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Re: Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by aicusv » Sat May 19, 2018 10:48 pm

kgeoff71 wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 6:38 am


It was sold as a WW1 original and the seller believes that’s what he was told years ago when he purchased it.
It wasn't that many years ago. I would go back to the dealer, he had to know.
fezzes frigidus es

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Re: Hessen pickelhaube fake or not?

Post by poniatowski » Thu May 24, 2018 1:58 pm

First, thank your partner for thinking of you! What a nice gesture in a field with no end of fakery going on just to fool novices. Next, if you can't return it, clean it up and use it as a form for helmet covers. :)

:D Ron
I really do need to know more about this....

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