Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

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RON
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Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by RON » Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:30 pm

Gentlemen, as you can see, I've been struggling with colonial headgear lately ](*,)

Here's another question for you:

How can one tell if a Shako is really Seebataillon and not something else more 'regular' in the absence of markings like for officer models or in my case, NCO ones?

Here's a photo for you. The inside has a sweatband and a liner pretty much like on officer models and no markings:

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What about that Reichs Feldzeichen, is it an NCO's too?
Last edited by RON on Wed May 01, 2013 4:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by RON » Sat Apr 27, 2013 1:07 pm

Gents, I got more photos from the seller. They're not that great so I'll post quite a few in case anyone sees any red flags... 8-[

The liner is similar to that of Officers, the Wappen is gilded, the feldzeichen stem is bended to accomodate a parade busch, the leather is of a better quality than that of Mannschaften. It seems to be of the same quality as an Officer's except for the black felt cover.

According to the seller, it's for an NCO, a One-year Volunteer (Einjährige Freiwilliger), or a "Private" (?) which would all have the same "configuration"/quality...

As there are no markings whatsoever, what could this Shako be? Would it still qualify as "Colonial" or "just another" Marine Infantry (Seebatallion) Shako ? :-k

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Last edited by RON on Wed May 01, 2013 5:22 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by Glennj » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:15 pm

Ronny,

It appears to be a private purchase Marine-Infanterie shako with the 1890 pattern plate. There is nothing to suggest that it was worn by a senior NCO as the Feldzeichen is the pattern worn by junior NCOs and Seesoldaten.

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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by RON » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:28 pm

Hello Glenn,
I thought the wappen gilding and screw posts (as opposed to leather tabs) were evidence to suggest it was worn by a senior NCO as the seller mentions... But hey, as long as it's all legit, that would be OK to...
Is the absence of markings whatsoever a bad thing? I see a wappen ghost, at least partially. For instance, there seems to be wear in the shape of an anchor...

Any red flags anyone sees? (to be honest with you, it's the Reichs Feldzeichen that worries me the most)
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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by RON » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:17 pm

Where are the Seebataillon Shako owners?? :wav:
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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by RON » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:06 pm

I've been looking through period photos and somehow all I've seen so far have their Reichs Feldzeichen more oval than squarish... but this doesn't mean much... ](*,)

Here's an example from Joe's collection: http://www.flickr.com/photos/joerookery ... 5/sizes/o/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by Westfront » Wed May 01, 2013 3:26 pm

Hi Ron

The helmet looks ok to me it can be a NCO but i think its a Eigentumsstück or Einjährig Freiwilliger but i think the feldzeichen is a fake i wil put some pictures of seebataillon shakos with the feldzeichen.

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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by RON » Wed May 01, 2013 4:52 pm

Many thanks WF for jumping to the rescue!
The problem is that even on the period or museum photos, the feldzeichen varies in terms of thickness of the central red dot or surrounding black circle from one shako to the other. If you compare all the photos above, they're almost all different... not to mention the specimen to the left (black leather shako) on the last photo which seems like the colors on its feldzeichen have been painted rather than sewn... the museum's remedy to a 'feldzeichenless' shako perhaps? :-k

Does anyone have an actual Reichs EM Feldzeichen to compare closeups?
Last edited by RON on Mon May 06, 2013 5:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by Westfront » Thu May 02, 2013 2:29 pm

I am looking for a original Seebataillon EM feldzeichen for my shako but they are very rare and hard to find for now i have a repro :( feldzeichen on it.

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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by RON » Fri May 03, 2013 5:25 am

When compared to my Feldzeichen sheet, the shape of your repro. feldzeichen is more squarish than oval same as my "mystery feldzeichen". But that wouldn't be enough to establish whether my "mystery feldzeichen" is fake or not.

Apart from what seems to be a "fuzzy" white fabric, what makes yours a fake? The various components look handstitched aren't they?
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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by Westfront » Fri May 03, 2013 5:38 am

I buy it on ebay for 18 euro and the seller has many more :D it is not handstitched but glued and the backside is very ugly.

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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by RON » Fri May 03, 2013 6:02 am

Yeah, an obvious one now... :-&

Maybe we should rob one of those museums you posted above?! But knowing my luck, I would probably end-up with the "painted" Feldzeichen... #-o

Let's see now, who else here has a (real) Reichs Feldzeichen they'd be ready to dissect for us? :-s
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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by RON » Sat May 04, 2013 5:46 pm

The seller is giving me the choice between the above Feldzeichen and another one he has on an East Asian Shako. Here they are side by side for comparison. Any idea which would be closer to the real thing if not it? In other words, which one do I go for? :o

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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by Westfront » Mon May 06, 2013 4:20 am

The one on the right side looks better i think :-k cant he send them both and when you made your choice you send one back.

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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by RON » Mon May 06, 2013 5:02 am

I wish!
I did some more picture scrutinizing this weekend... :blackeye:
If the red 'core' went underneath the central white circle surrounding it and if the black circle surrounding the latter 2 was slightly thicker, then the 2nd Feldzeichen he's offering would've looked much closer to most specimen I've seen in museum or period photos... Despite his poor quality photos, the central red 'dot' actually looks like it's stitched on top of the white cloth... But then again, this could be maker specific ](*,)

Here's an updated "benchmarking sheet" plus 2 more highlighting what I think I found so far:
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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by RON » Tue May 07, 2013 9:14 am

More "closeups" of the Shako with the better (?) Feldzeichen on:

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Anything unusual/wrong, please give me a shout the soonest as I'm about to close or cancel the deal... For instance, is it just me or is that eagle off-centered vis-a-vis the visor under it? :-?
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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by badener » Tue May 07, 2013 10:06 pm

You are obsessing Ron! :lol:
It must be a Bavarian. They always smell the worst!

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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by Westfront » Wed May 08, 2013 1:12 am

Have you recieved any pictures of the other side of the knopf91(linerside) it looks the left knopf91 is lose and you can turn it around.

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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by RON » Wed May 08, 2013 5:00 am

Matt is right; I'm losing my mind (and eyesight) over this one, especially with the lack of info or photos to compare with! :blackeye:

WF: According to the seller, the knopf is "properly fixed and nothing is wrong with it"... I already asked him to double-check and provide me with inside shots...
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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by RON » Wed May 08, 2013 7:37 am

WF, here are the backs of the knopfs. It looks like the LEFT one is missing its washer and both split "pins"--meaning it could make 360 deg. turns!--and if I'm not mistaken, the RIGHT one is missing its washer and 1 "pin"--so it also moves a bit! I guess these were either damaged/lost with time or tampered with... :-x :x :twisted:

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And more photos:
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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by Westfront » Wed May 08, 2013 1:35 pm

Mmmm i think someone has tampered with the knopf91. :-k

My motto is if you have any doubts about a item dont buy it it.

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Re: Kaiserliche Seebataillon NCO Shako?

Post by RON » Wed May 08, 2013 2:27 pm

Although the Feldzeichen could be a genuine variant, the Knopf 91 do seem to raise serious issues not to mention that Reichsadler which seems bizarrely off-centered versus the visor...

For the price the seller is asking (€1,850), I might as well save the money for something better I guess... :ANGRY:
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