Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

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Francobritishcollect
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Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

Post by Francobritishcollect » Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:46 am

Dear All

This is one of my great favourite ! Another ersatz, this time made of cork and covered with cloth.

Also known as the Palestinian pickelhaube (not sure there is much truth to that), it is a very light, fragile and flimsy helmet which, I believe is rare to find due to its very fragile construction. The chinstrap is fixed by two aluminium studs which having now expended with time, are now preventing the leather chinstrap to move. So it stuck and the only way to display this helmet safely is on a stand - as shown in those pictures.

Three or four previous owners wrote their names inside. Clearly, an helmet which has had a long and busy life but still managed to escape in good shape for the posterity !!

Any comments welcome

Best
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Last edited by Francobritishcollect on Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

Post by Francobritishcollect » Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:47 am

A few more...
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Re: Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

Post by Francobritishcollect » Sat Mar 07, 2020 5:48 am

And some more...
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Re: Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

Post by Zebedeus » Sat Mar 07, 2020 6:12 am

Great piece, in very good condition. I love ersatz helmets and this is an textbock one.
Congrats.
Nec recisa recedit.

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Re: Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

Post by pickelhauben » Sat Mar 07, 2020 8:30 am

Very nice.

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Re: Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

Post by argonne » Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:02 am

I recognize this helmet very well because I have bid on it online during the M. Baldwin selling....I was best bidder at the end of this auction but I was then later told by the auction house that I was not the winner :thumbsdown: :guns:
I tried to have an explanation and contacted Matthew Tredwen but there was nothing to do :thumbsdown: :thumbsdown:

I presume till today that another bidder made exactly the same bid after my own bid, but that this bidder was present in the auction room. So the auction house rather took a quick payment from him after the auction than wait for a later payment from Germany made by me.

It was a great pity for me because I could track the whole story and the unit of the german soldier who wore this helmet...Never bid again this way!!!

Philippe
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"Laechle und sei froh, denn es koennte schlimmer kommen!" - Und ich lächelte und war froh - Und es kam schlimmer..."

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Re: Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

Post by Francobritishcollect » Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:13 am

Hi Philippe

Sorry to hear about your misfortune on that auction. It is a shame indeed.

I would love to hear about the story you have about this helmet and his unit. Would you be kind enough to relay this to me, please?

Best

Alex

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Re: Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

Post by Amybellars » Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:17 pm

Alex how did you get that helmet?

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Re: Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

Post by Francobritishcollect » Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:08 am

Hi Amy. Bought it from a dealer here in the UK some time ago.

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Re: Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

Post by Amybellars » Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:23 am

Well that dealer sure has paid a high price for it as it didn't go cheap on this helmet at the C&T auction

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Re: Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

Post by coert65 » Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:36 am

Very nice helmet, and in beautiful condition!

Congratulations! :bravo:

I hope you will get the info on the previous wearer from Philippe.

Greetings, Coert.

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Re: Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

Post by Schiavona13 » Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:26 am

If the dealer was in the room at the auction and Philippe left a writen bid normally the rule is that the room has the advantage and the bid wil go to the roombidder if the writen bid will not go any higher
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Re: Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

Post by argonne » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:09 am

Schiavona13 wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:26 am
If the dealer was in the room at the auction and Philippe left a writen bid normally the rule is that the room has the advantage and the bid wil go to the roombidder if the writen bid will not go any higher
My bid was not written but live (online) through "Invaluable", a very few seconds before end of auction. My bid was exactly £ 1400 and it was the last bid.

I preserved the link, just to hurt me and to make me sure: NEVER AGAIN!!!!!!...

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/ ... 4A446DEB17

I would not be surprised if the winner in the saleroom was the dealer who sold you this helmet later. Now you know his profit...I think I know which dealer it was, presumably Regimentals....They bought a lot from Baldwin to sell the stuff much higher a few weeks later...This does not matter me, that´s the way dealer make profits...But the fact that my highest live bid has been ignored by the organisator of this auction, which is himself the son of another wellknown UK dealer makes me really really angry!!! :army: A real chumminess :-x

Philippe
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Re: Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

Post by ww1czechlegion » Sun Mar 08, 2020 12:40 pm

by member argonne:
I would not be surprised if the winner in the saleroom was the dealer who sold you this helmet later. Now you know his profit...I think I know which dealer it was, presumably Regimentals....They bought a lot from Baldwin to sell the stuff much higher a few weeks later...This does not matter me, that´s the way dealer make profits...But the fact that my highest live bid has been ignored by the organisator of this auction, which is himself the son of another wellknown UK dealer makes me really really angry!!! :army: A real chumminess :-x

Philippe
I agree with you Philippe, and I also feel and agree with your pain and anger over the inappropriate antics and stunts pulled by this auction house.

I myself suffered less than you did with my single experience with them. The auction house broke their own clearly stated bid increment level rules with the one item I bid on and won. I was listening to the entire happenings live with the auction on Invaluable to watch my dangerously high proxy bid that I had left with Invaluable earlier, before the auction had started. Once the item hit the 1,0000 Pounds Sterling bid level, the auction house was supposed to only take 100 Pounds Sterling bid amounts. I heard the auctioneer accept a 50 Pounds Sterling bid amount from someone in the audience who proceeded to bid me up another 3-clicks or 150 Pounds Sterling on the item I won. I wrote about this happening on the 21st posting for the thread found here: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=11679

The staff of the auction house are also very poor communicators, in my opinion. I wrote them emails several times after payment for my winning bid to ask for a tracking number on the package, and they never acknowledged my inquiry. Fortunately my package arrived rather quickly without any incident.

I noticed the C & T Auctioneers tables once again at the recent S.O.S. with Matthew Tredwin, the "son of the other well known UK dealer" manning the table, and I didn't stop to look at anything, nor acknowledge him.

Best Regards,

Alan

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Re: Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

Post by b.loree » Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:00 pm

Regimentals has been in business for 40 years, they have probably been running stuff through this auction house for decades as well. No wonder we see preferential treatment here. The same thing exists between dealers and collectors. When I was buying helmets in the 80's and early 90's I bought extensively from a dealer who had a militaria shop in a small town 45 minutes away. Once I had made some helmet purchases, more exotic helmets started to appear from Toronto and Ottawa...officer kurassier, JzP, Hessen officer etc. He knew he had a serious collector who had money to spend so the offerings got better and more expensive. The same thing goes on at the SOS, dealers show up with helmets/militaria for specific customers. These things are never put on their tables but they are sold. Another example....once word got around about James liking Kinder items at the Show a couple of dealers showed up at our tables to offer items. Such is the collecting world, my 2 cents anyway.
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Re: Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

Post by J.LeBrasseur » Sun Mar 08, 2020 3:53 pm

There are good and bad auctioneers all over, I have learned which ones in my area I do not even go to anymore.

One local auction years ago had tons of Militaria, many Third Reich but hey if I get it for cheap, I can resell to fund the spikes.

anyway, the whole day I was bidding on items, and just one other guy was bidding against me the whole day, kept really bidding me up on the good stuff etc.

About 1/2 way through the auction a guy comes up to me and says, you know the other guy bidding owns all this stuff right? I was shocked, so during a break I went to the auctioneer and said, what's the deal, and the reply was we cannot control who bids on the items, we know it is his stuff but so be it... Last time I went to any of there auctions.

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Re: Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

Post by Francobritishcollect » Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:58 pm

coert65 wrote:
Sun Mar 08, 2020 5:36 am
Very nice helmet, and in beautiful condition!

Congratulations! :bravo:

I hope you will get the info on the previous wearer from Philippe.

Greetings, Coert.
Thanks Coert !

Alex

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Re: Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

Post by ww1czechlegion » Sun Mar 08, 2020 6:02 pm

Hello Alex,

I'm sorry that I forgot the most important thing about this thread: That your helmet is in wonderful condition, and I congratulate you for buying it and adding it to your collection. =D>

I do feel badly for Philippe about the auction and how they handled things, and I can understand the frustration he must feel with the auction house. I would be frustrated and disappointed too, if it happened to me.

It wasn't your fault Alex, that things happened the way they did at the auction house that day of the sale with the dealer ending up getting the helmet instead of Philippe. I'm sure he also agrees and knows that it wasn't your fault that the big dealer ended up with the helmet, and not him. It probably is frustrating for him to see the helmet after a couple of years of wondering who ended up with it instead of him. I know if I were in Philippe's shoes and this happened to me, it would be a frustrating feeling that I would be experiencing, thinking about that day of the auction and how things transpired.
by member b.loree:
Regimentals has been in business for 40 years, they have probably been running stuff through this auction house for decades as well. No wonder we see preferential treatment here. The same thing exists between dealers and collectors.


I agree with what Brian said a couple of posts ago that I quote above this line. Things happen in life that can sometimes be unfortunate with collecting, dealing, auction houses, and long time business relationships, and some times others get preferential treatment. That's probably what happened with the situation with Philippe and Malcom Fisher of Regimentals with this helmet the day of the auction, which is unfortunate that this happened to Philippe.

Best Regards,

Alan

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Re: Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

Post by Francobritishcollect » Mon Mar 09, 2020 10:30 am

No worries Alan and thank you for your comments.

I guess we all have encountered issues when buying pickels and other items of militaria, whether it is at auctions, from dealers, on Ebay or other places. It is like any other kind of collectables, where there is a market, there is money to make, therefore dealers, collector networks and a lot of unofficial deals going on. With this in mind, I try to keep things simple: with regard to auction lots which I really want, I do my bidding in the room or arrange for them to be done over the telephone. Ebay: can’t do it. Gives me a headache. Dealers: I rarely buy from them unless I have seen the item myself or I have had a tip off from someone I know and trust. Even with them, there is always some room for discussions.

I was in the room when the collection from which this helmet comes from was sold. From Helmut Weize to Regimentals, most of the European dealers were there and yes, a lot of helmets ended up with them.

Now, on the issue of how much dealers make out of the stuff they buy, I would be more nuanced than Philippe on the subject. I have seem unsold auction items going for less than the asking price on dealers’ websites. Also not rare to see items going to dealers and resold with a mark-up, but nothing crazy. For instance, I lost to Regimentals a lovely Baden reserve officer helmet a month or so ago. It went for £2,700. Plus commission, it was a £3,375 helmet. It is now for sale on their website for £3,800. That is a mere £425 mark-up. You would need to sell a lot of them to make a decent living....

BTW. The helmet does not come from Regimentals

Best

Alex

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Re: Another ersatz... made of cork and cloth !

Post by argonne » Tue Mar 10, 2020 3:00 pm

For a few years I have specialised myself in the collecting of nominatives EM Haubes.

I took this decision because I love the challenge to track every single destiny of those poor guys.

This research is not an easy thing at all and it needs a particular knowhow based on the own experience (learning by doing) and the lot of time invested during those research. You have to understand a lot of things about the organisation in the old imperial army and how the things worked in old Germany, as a solid basis knowledge concerning the complicated relations between different units (active, reserve and Landwehr) and the moving of units during the war. And at last but not least, to know how and where to search at every step of every single investigation and the ability to decypher the old Sütterlin in the "Regiments Geschichte" and other period sources (Kriegsstammrollen).

I have been asked many time to help, especially on the french forum where I am a long time member too. Most of the time I am pleased to do that.

But in this special case, sorry Alex, I can´t...I know I have been fooled with this auction but I do not know who exactly fooled me. So I prefer to remain silent :-#

Philippe
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"Laechle und sei froh, denn es koennte schlimmer kommen!" - Und ich lächelte und war froh - Und es kam schlimmer..."

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