Two Pickelhauben that need work. Here is #1

[JohnS3rd]

Hello Folks,
I picked up two pickelhauben back in December, and in the heat of the moment, I went way overboard on bidding for one of them. Not that any of you have everyone that
However, in this case, I always wanted an Imperial Preußen Garde Infantry Officer's Pickelhaube after first seeing one in a friend's collection many years ago. My Garde Infantry Officer's Pickelhaube will need some TLC as it has been poorly stored at one time. The most challenging task is to straighten out the dent in the top of the leather and spike base. The stitching on the front and rear visors are loose, and the leather that attaches has deteriorated and chipped away, so I do not think reattaching them is an option. But, I think I could reshape the back visors. I will also have to replace the EM Prussian rosette with an officer model rosette. I am undecided about the liner, but that can wait until later.
Advice from the Subject Matter Experts or SMEs will be greatly appreciated.
Best regards
John

[911car]

Hi John,
This is not a Garde infantry helmet. It could be a 2nd Garde Dragoner officer helmet that was wrongly fitted with a fluted spike. The chinscales are too long though, and may not be original to this helmet. It could also be a Garde Pioneer or Kraftfahr or Eisenbahn officer helmet, also fitted with the wrong spike and chinscales (these look more curved than flat, right?). In both cases, the "rosettes" holding the yellow metal chinscales should be silver in colour.

[JohnS3rd]

911car,
Thanks for that information. I am sure that quite a few things were off after looking at helmets here and other members' websites. And, I was thinking at it could have been Garde Pioneer or Eisenbahn officer pickelhaube. However, I figured I would post and learn some more.
I had previously had collected a couple back in the '80s when I was stationed in West Berlin and early '90s but downsized and changed my collecting focus.
I appreciate your feedback.
Best regards,
John

[ww1czechlegion]

Hi John,

I hope that you will not mind me taking the liberty to post brighter photos of your helmet that were taken by the source where you acquired your helmet from. It will show us the color differences on the metal parts for everyone to see much clearer, and to also assess the damage to the loose back visor.

This helmet is definitely a Reservist 2nd Guard Dragoon Officer Helmet. It's not a Guard Pioneer or Eisenbahn Officer helmet for the following reasons:

1.) Square cut front visor worn by Prussian Dragoon Officers. Guard Pioneer & Eisenbahn officers had rounded shaped front visors.
2.) The clover leaf shaped spike base as worn by Prussian Dragoon Officers. Guard Pioneer & Eisenbahn officers wore a round spike base.
3) The curved brass color chin scales are correct for 2nd Guard Dragoon Officer.

The silver Reservist Guard Eagle in combination with the silver trim on the square front visor and the silver color metal back spine on the helmet are correct for 2nd Guard Dragoon Officer.

What's wrong on your helmet has been pointed out by Bruno:

1.) The brass color fluted spike. 2nd Guard Dragoon Officer should have a smooth sided silver color spike. This spike is brass from what it looks like in the photos. The fluted spike is either Bavarian officer that has incorrectly been placed on this helmet by the former collector, or it is a General Officer's spike that has been incorrectly placed on this helmet. I can't quite tell by the way the spike is sitting on the top of the neck of the spike base as to whether it is a Bavarian officer spike, or a Prussian General's spike. It's hard to tell from the photos I posted here of your helmet.

2.) The brass color rosettes are incorrect on this helmet. They are flat shaped for foot officers. They should be curved to match the curvature of the chin scales on this helmet. And the rosettes should be silver in color on 2nd Guard Dragoon officer.

3.) The black-white Prussian kokarde as you may know is an enlisted pattern kokarde, and should be an officer style in the pattern like your National colors kokarde on the other side of the helmet.

4). Bruno mentioned the chinscales might be too long for this helmet. That's a possibility. Is the front visor unstitched/loose also? It looks like it might be loose. That might be part of the problem with the chinscales looking too long. But I think he's right, they should be possibly 1-link shorter on each side.

I can't quite tell if the top edge of the back visor above the stitch line is broke off, or if it is still there, from viewing the photos.

Best Regards,

Alan

[911car]

How could I write this??? It was far too late after a long day... Of course the helmet cannot be for a Pioneer or related officer! Apologies for such a gross error, John. I was going to correct my post but Alan had already done it. Many thanks, Alan.
We keep with the Garde Dragoner, then.

[Tony without Kaiser]

How could I write this??? It was far too late after a long day...

Perhaps you have gone

[911car]

How could I write this??? It was far too late after a long day...

Perhaps you have gone

Perhaps you are right

[Amybellars]

Auction Helmet Photos 1.jpg

Auction Helmet Photo 2.jpg

Auction Helmet Photo 3.jpg

Auction Helmet Photo 4.jpg

Auction Helmet Photo 5.jpg

Hi John,

I hope that you will not mind me taking the liberty to post brighter photos of your helmet that were taken by the source where you acquired your helmet from. It will show us the color differences on the metal parts for everyone to see much clearer, and to also assess the damage to the loose back visor.

This helmet is definitely a Reservist 2nd Guard Dragoon Officer Helmet. It's not a Guard Pioneer or Eisenbahn Officer helmet for the following reasons:

1.) Square cut front visor worn by Prussian Dragoon Officers. Guard Pioneer & Eisenbahn officers had rounded shaped front visors.
2.) The clover leaf shaped spike base as worn by Prussian Dragoon Officers. Guard Pioneer & Eisenbahn officers wore a round spike base.
3) The curved brass color chin scales are correct for 2nd Guard Dragoon Officer.

The silver Reservist Guard Eagle in combination with the silver trim on the square front visor and the silver color metal back spine on the helmet are correct for 2nd Guard Dragoon Officer.

What's wrong on your helmet has been pointed out by Bruno:

1.) The brass color fluted spike. 2nd Guard Dragoon Officer should have a smooth sided silver color spike. This spike is brass from what it looks like in the photos. The fluted spike is either Bavarian officer that has incorrectly been placed on this helmet by the former collector, or it is a General Officer's spike that has been incorrectly placed on this helmet. I can't quite tell by the way the spike is sitting on the top of the neck of the spike base as to whether it is a Bavarian officer spike, or a Prussian General's spike. It's hard to tell from the photos I posted here of your helmet.

2.) The brass color rosettes are incorrect on this helmet. They are flat shaped for foot officers. They should be curved to match the curvature of the chin scales on this helmet. And the rosettes should be silver in color on 2nd Guard Dragoon officer.

3.) The black-white Prussian kokarde as you may know is an enlisted pattern kokarde, and should be an officer style in the pattern like your National colors kokarde on the other side of the helmet.

4). Bruno mentioned the chinscales might be too long for this helmet. That's a possibility. Is the front visor unstitched/loose also? It looks like it might be loose. That might be part of the problem with the chinscales looking too long. But I think he's right, they should be possibly 1-link shorter on each side.

I can't quite tell if the top edge of the back visor above the stitch line is broke off, or if it is still there, from viewing the photos.

Best Regards,

Alan

Alan

Can I know how do u brighten the pictures?

Regards
Amy Bellars

[ww1czechlegion]

Hi Amy,

Thanks for your excellent question.

I did not brighten the photos.

The photos I posted were from the original seller of this helmet. They were taken by a professional photographer I presume.

I only copied them from the sale venue web site, saved them on my computer hard drive, and posted them here.

Best Wishes,

Alan

[JohnS3rd]

Well, Folks,
I apologize for not reply to comments on my post sooner. After all your comments and looking here and elsewhere on the web, I had to gather my thoughts.

Tony’s Kaiser’s Bunker, besides being a wonderful tribute to his best pal Kaiser, Kaiser’s Bunker gave me a better grounding on the subject of pickelhaubes and their set-up and transition to them in the different eras and units. It is a site I have gone to in comparing examples I have seen on other websites.

The “Der Rittmeister” webpage has a similar helmet. Still, in much better condition than my own, it identified the helmet as “The à la Suite General’s which had all-silver furniture, ...[except for], its gilt-toned officers’ stars.” It goes on to explain that the helmet was possibly owned by honorary adjutant or general officer, aka Prussian General à la Suite or Flügeladjutant’s pickelhaube.

I have pasted the link below for your reference.

https://derrittmeister.com/product/prus ... adjutants/

A couple of auction house sites have similar pickelhaube, in previous sales, which describes similar pickelhaube as having been worn by General Staff Officers.

Faced with the information I have found in my research, I figured that I needed to see the condition and shape the leather is underneath the hardware. So, I have begun removing the metal hardware from the pickelhaube. I have been very patient to see how what impressions are in the leather and assess what can be done in possible restoration.

As always, I humbly look forward to hearing your thought on my post, good, bad, or ... (whatever) as I learn from those who know. I seek to avoid my past mistakes.
Best regards,
John

[911car]

Well, Folks,
I apologize for not reply to comments on my post sooner. After all your comments and looking here and elsewhere on the web, I had to gather my thoughts.

Tony’s Kaiser’s Bunker, besides being a wonderful tribute to his best pal Kaiser, Kaiser’s Bunker gave me a better grounding on the subject of pickelhaubes and their set-up and transition to them in the different eras and units. It is a site I have gone to in comparing examples I have seen on other websites.

The “Der Rittmeister” webpage has a similar helmet. Still, in much better condition than my own, it identified the helmet as “The à la Suite General’s which had all-silver furniture, ...[except for], its gilt-toned officers’ stars.” It goes on to explain that the helmet was possibly owned by honorary adjutant or general officer, aka Prussian General à la Suite or Flügeladjutant’s pickelhaube.

I have pasted the link below for your reference.

https://derrittmeister.com/product/prus ... adjutants/

A couple of auction house sites have similar pickelhaube, in previous sales, which describes similar pickelhaube as having been worn by General Staff Officers.

Faced with the information I have found in my research, I figured that I needed to see the condition and shape the leather is underneath the hardware. So, I have begun removing the metal hardware from the pickelhaube. I have been very patient to see how what impressions are in the leather and assess what can be done in possible restoration.

As always, I humbly look forward to hearing your thought on my post, good, bad, or ... (whatever) as I learn from those who know. I seek to avoid my past mistakes.
Best regards,
John

A reserve General a la Suite???
Your helmet bears a reserve cross, John. You should keep with the Dragoner officer...

L1060098.JPG

[JohnS3rd]

Allen, you bring up a good point about it not being General a la Suite. Is it possible that it would have been worn by a General Staff Officer who was also a reservist? Again, I do not know one way or the other. I am just wondering what would be the appropriate set up as the crucifix spike base seems to have always been on the helmet; it along with the Adler/Eagel and front visor are silver. Always thanks for your comments.
Best regards,
John

1 Prussian General Staff Officers' Pickelhaube Top.JPG

2 Prussian General Staff Officers' Pickelhaube F stripped.JPG

[ww1czechlegion]

Hi John,

Please, let's get something straightened out that you're confused about here. You've been communicating back and forth with member "911car", who's name is "Bruno", and you're incorrectly calling him "Alan". You started calling him Alan after I posted my lengthy explanation about your helmet above here, and you carried that mistake over onto a different posting in another section on the forum.

And yes, Bruno is correct about your helmet, and I agree with him that what you have is a Reservist 2nd Guard Dragoon Officer Helmet with an incorrect fluted Bavarian spike on it.

Yes, your crucifix spike base has always been on your helmet. Prussian Dragoon Officers wore the cruciform spike bases like what's on your helmet. It's really not that difficult to understand that your helmet is a "2nd Guard Dragoon Reservist Officer Helmet". The collector from Chicago simply had a wrong spike on the helmet, a gold/brass color fluted Bavarian Officer spike. Is that hard to understand? Does this make sense to you?

Basically all you need to do to correct your helmet is to find a smooth sided silver officer spike that has a threaded screw post that will work with your spike base, and put the gold fluted spike into your parts box or drawer to use on a Bavarian helmet some day.

The collection from Chicago where this helmet came out from had many of the helmets showing problems with them, such as incorrect parts (the incorrect spike on your helmet for example). Some helmets had glued on visors. Some had wrong chinscales on them (the jaeger zu pferde wartime helmet had enlisted artillery or infantry chinscales on it). I don't remember which they were, but they were not appropriate for a wartime gray trimmed JzP enlisted helmet. It seems the late collector was either fed messed with helmets by dealers, or he didn't care/didn't know what parts were correct on several of his helmets. He seems to have just bought "stuff" whether it had a glued on visor, the liner torn out of it, or wrong parts on it. There were a few nice helmets, but most of them had issues/problems.

Best Regards,

Alan

[JohnS3rd]

OH I am a bit embarrassed to say the least. My sincerest apologies to Bruno for continuously mistakingly address you as Alan, and the same to Alan too I will endeavor to correctly address my replies to the appropriate individual responding to my posts

Alan, Thank You very much for bringing my mistake to my address; I appreciate it very much Also, thank you for coming out and cutting to the chase about my helmet and the others that were at auction as well. I have come to pretty much the same conclusion about this helmet and the other one I acquired in December. But that is another story for another time.

Again I truly appreciate feedback from one and all. But most importantly, the information that folks freely share on this forum.
Best regards,
John

[911car]

Hi John,

Please, let's get something straightened out that you're confused about here. You've been communicating back and forth with member "911car", who's name is "Bruno", and you're incorrectly calling him "Alan". You started calling him Alan after I posted my lengthy explanation about your helmet above here, and you carried that mistake over onto a different posting in another section on the forum.

And yes, Bruno is correct about your helmet, and I agree with him that what you have is a Reservist 2nd Guard Dragoon Officer Helmet with an incorrect fluted Bavarian spike on it.

Yes, your crucifix spike base has always been on your helmet. Prussian Dragoon Officers wore the cruciform spike bases like what's on your helmet. It's really not that difficult to understand that your helmet is a "2nd Guard Dragoon Reservist Officer Helmet". The collector from Chicago simply had a wrong spike on the helmet, a gold/brass color fluted Bavarian Officer spike. Is that hard to understand? Does this make sense to you?

Basically all you need to do to correct your helmet is to find a smooth sided silver officer spike that has a threaded screw post that will work with your spike base, and put the gold fluted spike into your parts box or drawer to use on a Bavarian helmet some day.

The collection from Chicago where this helmet came out from had many of the helmets showing problems with them, such as incorrect parts (the incorrect spike on your helmet for example). Some helmets had glued on visors. Some had wrong chinscales on them (the jaeger zu pferde wartime helmet had enlisted artillery or infantry chinscales on it). I don't remember which they were, but they were not appropriate for a wartime gray trimmed JzP enlisted helmet. It seems the late collector was either fed messed with helmets by dealers, or he didn't care/didn't know what parts were correct on several of his helmets. He seems to have just bought "stuff" whether it had a glued on visor, the liner torn out of it, or wrong parts on it. There were a few nice helmets, but most of them had issues/problems.

Best Regards,

Alan

Many thanks for the rectification, Alan; I should have done it myself, and earlier...
Cheers,
Bruno

[ww1czechlegion]

Hey John,

No worries. No need to feel embarrassed at all.

We're all very glad that you're here. We're here to help you however we can with helmets, and for all of us to help each other out how ever we can.

I'm very curious which is the other helmet that you won on the auction. There were good helmets there mixed in with ones with wrong parts on them, and ones that had missing liners, glued on visors, etc. In the typical 2-helmet per lot system the auction house mostly used, they seemed to have 1-better helmet paired with a problem helmet. I myself bid on 2-different auction lots that each had 2-helmets per lot. I was the 2nd high bidder on both lots, and didn't pursue them higher, although both lots each had 1-very nice, desirable helmet in each of the lots. There were a few auction lots were they sold 1-helmet per lot, such as the one that had your Reservist 2nd Guard Dragoon Officer Helmet.

I'm hoping the other helmet you purchased was the brass trimmed Prussian Guard Train Battalion helmet. That one only needs 1-domed brad retainer for the spike base, and 1-of the kokardes changed out on the helmet, since it has a mis-matched set: an enlisted National kokarde, and an NCO style Prussian kokarde on the helmet.

There was a beautiful Prussian 1-Year-Volunteer Artillery model 1895 helmet in one of the lots. The only thing wrong with it was that it was missing one of the split brads on one side of the front visor trim. An easy fix. The other lot had a beautiful Model 1915 Bavarian Chevauleger enlisted helmet. The front visor trim had pulled off from the visor on about 2/3 of the visor, and I believe it could have been easily fixed. It also had one of the screw posts broken off from the front plate. Not the end of the world, but it would take some work to get it repaired. I gave up chasing both these lots as the 2nd high bidder, because one never knows how high the other person will end up going, plus the factor of the 23% commission which adds a huge amount of money to the ending gavel price of the auction lot.

Best Regards,

Alan

[911car]

OH I am a bit embarrassed to say the least. My sincerest apologies to Bruno for continuously mistakingly address you as Alan, and the same to Alan too I will endeavor to correctly address my replies to the appropriate individual responding to my posts

Alan, Thank You very much for bringing my mistake to my address; I appreciate it very much Also, thank you for coming out and cutting to the chase about my helmet and the others that were at auction as well. I have come to pretty much the same conclusion about this helmet and the other one I acquired in December. But that is another story for another time.

Again I truly appreciate feedback from one and all. But most importantly, the information that folks freely share on this forum.
Best regards,
John

No problem, John. Here is a genuine Prussian General a la Suite helmet, for your information.
Good luck.

[argonne]

Hi Gents,

To me a clear case of parts helmet

Look at the prussian EM cockade too

It looks like that someone tried to complete this helmet without any knowledge of the stuff

Philippe

[JohnS3rd]

Hello Folks,
First of all, thanks for your observations, Philippe. Bruno, thank you for the beautiful picture of a real Prussian General a la Suite helmet, and again I apologize for confusing you with Alan. As I mentioned earlier, I have only dabbled in Pickelhaubes on and off over the years. If not dangerous, it can be costly, ergo my coming to one of the fonts of knowledge in the realm of Pickelhauben.
In answer to Alan's question, I am attempting to attach some pictures of helmet #2 from the December Auction. I know it does have its problems; however, it is better overall than #1.
#2 helmet is solid M95, all switching present, seems to have all original brass, Model 1887 one-piece pearlring base and spike, vented rear spine, and wide brass trim on front visor and eagle or Adler with a vented crown all caught my eye. Besides the vented Adler, a previous owner replaced the M1891 posts with private purchased chinscales and officer rosettes. These differences could indicate a sergeant/feldwebel who attained senior NCO/Vize-Felwebel, Unteroffizer rank or possibly applied for a one-year volunteer billet, which would explain the helmet upgrades. That said, there seems to be no manufacture or unit marking inside the helmet or the rear visor.
After using Tony's website, I noted that the large hole M91 issue cockades do not seem correct for the setup. I could be mistaken. However, the most severe problem is the chinscales. Besides the two missing pieces from the left/male side, which I knew when I bid found that the one good chinscale, on the right, the female side had a superglued repair. So I have the set of chinscales to repair.
But, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I am quite happy with what seems to be a standard issued M95 converted for a senior NCO or an officer candidate.
Again, I am open to your comments and advice. But, one small request, please add your name at the bottom of your comments, so I do not mistake the person commenting.
Thanks
John

[JohnS3rd]

Here are some more pictures with rosettes and chinscales removed.

[b.loree]

I think helmet number two simply represents an older collector trying to upgrade a helmet or in the case of the officer wappen, provide something that was missing. We could also be dealing with the results of some dealer messing with the piece to charge more money. There were many pieces in this auction that had been messed with, were missing parts or had incorrect fittings on them. I don’t believe that any soldat would have damaged government property because of a promotion. He could have simply changed the Kokarden to NCO. Brian

[JohnS3rd]

Brian,
Thank you for your analysis. I have seen much monkeying around with medals and uniforms over the years. Though the helmet has rounded liner fingers, I cannot locate manufacture or unit markings on it.

As an aside, most if not all German military items Imperial and Third Reich have some stamp or marking of just about every part. Be it a steel helmet, liner, suspension system, bayonet, leather strap, ammo pouch, etc., etc., etc., it will have some minute stamping impressed onto, molded into, or labels marked and readily found. However, it seems that pickelhauben, for the most part, bye and large exempt from this relatively common German bureaucratic requirement.
Have you or others noted this, or am I OTF: out there flapping?
Best regards,
John

[b.loree]

I can only speak from my own experience John. Most prewar helmets have good inked Regt. marking but some are not . Then I have found these ink markings blotted out or ground / sanded off. This was probably done when the Germans realized that these could provide information to the enemy. Then there are helmets with painted markings up inside the shell. The Bavarian pieces I have handled often have their markings stamped/impressed into the rear visor but there are some ink stamps too. Most M15’s are not marked except for the manufacturer stamp inside the shell. Felt helmets may have a Korps Roman Numeral inked under the rear visor but no Regt. ID. Again my experience only.

[JohnS3rd]

Hello Folks,
Brian, thank you for the information about the different markings found on pre-pickelhauben and the M15. From an operational security or OPSEC position, this makes perfect sense on what one can expect from the two variances.
I found the information on "Bavaria pieces ... often have their markings stamped/impressed into the rear visor." The Bavarian M95 I just purchased from James has an impressed or branded Unit marking on the rear visor. I believe it is "18 IR"
Best regards,
John

[b.loree]

That is a great example of the typical Bavarian imprinted markings. I also noticed in my travels that the Bavarians usually put the number first then the letters. Other more unusual placement for ink stamp markings are on the flesh/rough side of the OR’s liners. We see this in Tschapkas, and sometimes shakos although most of the latter are marked up on the inside of the leather top. The OR hussar busbies will be normally ink stamped on the inside top surface and also underneath the kolpak. I have little experience with busbies but this is the way it is with my HR 20 Saxe and the ones I examined years ago in Tony’s collection. Metal cavalry helmets will most often be Regimentally stamped on the underside trim of the lobster tail. Others for example, Garde du Corps will be have their markings stamped on the side of the helmet underneath the Kokarde. More experienced collectors or those who have larger collections, will no doubt be able to provide exceptions to the what I have stated above.

[JohnS3rd]

Brian,
Thank you again for the information. It is fascinating how the Bavarians, aka Bairisch, like to do things differently from the Nothern Germans, especially in language. They are much like Texans in relation to the rest of the northern states in the United States.

Later, I hope to post a separate thread with my Bavarian Pickelhaube pictures and speculation as to which unit issued the helmet.
Best regards,
John