Prussian Cavalry NCO Portepee

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RON
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Prussian Cavalry NCO Portepee

Post by RON » Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:11 am

Gents, would knot Nr. 10 in the photo below qualify as a "Prussian Cavalry Officer & NCO Portepee or Faustriemen"? The photo comes from that book I still need to buy by Heinrich Kreutz et al.: Edged Weapon Accoutrements of Germany (1800-1945). If anyone has it here, could you please check on page 69 and tell me what knot 10 is described as?

Image

If so, would it look weird on/"overqualified" for a M1889 Issued EM Degen like the below?

Image
Last edited by RON on Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Prussian Cavalry NCO Portepee

Post by skaterboy54 » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:14 pm

that looks interesting :)
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Re: Prussian Cavalry NCO Portepee

Post by Glennj » Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:01 pm

Ron,

It is captioned as "Prussian NCO Sword knot for mounted formations. Brown leather strap with silver and black knot with fringe"

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Re: Prussian Cavalry NCO Portepee

Post by RON » Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:34 pm

Many thanks Glenn!
A similar one I think in pristine/unused condition recently sold on eBay for close to $200: http://www.ebay.com/itm/271188566765?ss ... 1423.l2649" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

By the way, you wouldn't happen to have any German Colonial (e.g. The German Colonial Troops (1889-1918) by Juergen Kraus) or Reichs Polizei books would you?
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Re: Prussian Cavalry NCO Portepee

Post by Glennj » Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:23 pm

Ron,

I don't have the Kraus colonial troops book although I do the two Ingo Löhken Polizei uniform books.

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Re: Prussian Cavalry NCO Portepee

Post by RON » Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:45 pm

Hey Glenn, when you have a minute, could you please check if there's anything related to Police or Kommunalpolizei (Communal Police) or Schutzmännern (= Constables?) or even Colonial Police helmets with the typical Schutzmannschaftspitze that would have the Imperial Reichsadler as a wappen?

Here's my "mystery helmet", originally described as an "Alsatian Police Helmet":
Image

(More details & photos of my ongoing 'investigation' in the last 4 posts here: http://www.pickelhaubes.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4256" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
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Re: Prussian Cavalry NCO Portepee

Post by Glennj » Mon Apr 22, 2013 1:46 am

Ron,

the helmet pretty much matches the description of a Wachtmeister of the Kaiserliche Schutzmannschaft; that is a pattern based on the Berlin model with silver fittings. The Wachtmeister wore the Reichsadler whereas the Schutzmänner wore an a "W" cypher and both the Reichskokarde on the right hand side.

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Re: Prussian Cavalry NCO Portepee

Post by RON » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:28 am

Glenn, you've done it again it seems! :bravo: =D> \:D/

I've been trying to find some sort of clue as to what this helmet was exactly including period photos but no luck so far. With not enough reference books yet, all I had was the internet and the Forum.

I would need more help in the identification process if you don't mind:

Helmet Background:
From the net, "Wachtmeister' (German for master-sentinel; watch-master) was a German, Austrian and Swiss military rank of non-commissioned officers". Across the German Empire, a Polizei-Wachtmeister corresponded to an Army Vizefeldwebel (Sergeant)...
> If so, shouldn't there be an NCO Reichs cockade instead of a regular EM/OR on my helmet?
> Was such a helmet worn in Reichsland Alsace-Lorraine only or the colonies too?
> Any idea where these 'Schutzmänner' stood from the Gendarmerie (zu Fuss or zu Pferde), Reichsgendarmerie, Landgendarmerie (peacetime MPs), Feldgendarmerie (wartime MPs), etc., in terms of hierarchy/flowchart if any? :-k

Helmet Fittings:
> Was/should the Reichsadler wappen be nickel silver same as the rest of the fittings (spike & base, visor trims, side posts & chinstrap fixations, rear spine)?
> Noting the M1891 posts + leather chinstrap + rear spine ventilation on one hand and the older style pre-1891 liner on the other, would you have any clue as to helmet period or model?
> What about the Schutzmannschaft Helmets with 'open-wing' Reichsadlers? Where did these fit vis-a-vis the ones with 'regular' Reichsadlers?

Period photos:
> There's plenty of Prussian Königliche or Elsass-Lothringen Schutzmannschaften on the net but so far I haven't found any with my helmet... Here's the closest I found so far but I'm not sure if some of these wappens are not just Prussian Adlers instead of Reichsadlers:
http://www.seitengewehr.de/dornach.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
(Come to think of it, most of the answers to my questions could be in this document, only my German is limited to Goggle Translator!)
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Re: Prussian Cavalry NCO Portepee

Post by Glennj » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:52 am

Ron,

Quite a few questions there!

But firstly, that link is very useful and those guys are definitely Kaiserliche Schutzmannschaft. The three main conurbations of Alsace-Lorraine, Straßburg, Mülhausen and Metz were policed by the Kaiserliche Schutzmannschaft (Imperial Constabulary). The guys in the photograph are from the Kreis Mülhausen detachment as confirmed by the signature of Polizei-Kommissar Gropengießer. The helmet of the Wachtmeister most closely resembles yours albeit yours has a chin-strap as opposed to the scales. I would not put too much emphasis on the lack of a silver ringed cockade; perhaps the owner never got round to upgrading that particular piece.

The Reichsgendarmerie policed the rural areas and assisted the Schutzmannschaft as necessary. The smaller towns of Alsace-Lorraine were policed by “Kantonal” or Ortspolizei. The non-commissioned ranks of the Schutzmannschaft were Schutzmann and Wachtmeister. They were a totally separate organisation to the Reichsgendarmerie or any other form of local or town police, basically a large city police force.

You mentioned the term “Mediastadt” on the other thread. Coincidentally, I was looking into this very term just a couple of weeks ago and my own very detailed set of German dictionaries could not provide a suitable translation. I therefore asked a German friend of mine for his help and he told me that he had never heard of the term!! We decided that it refers to a medium sized provincial town not large enough to merit its own Schutzmannscaft but policed by a Kommunalpolizei force.

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Re: Prussian Cavalry NCO Portepee

Post by RON » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:49 pm

Many thanks again Glenn and my apologies for the bombardment! :)

Just to be clear:
> The Reichsadler wappen on my helmet should be nickel silver like the rest of the fittings, correct?
> Because of the M91 side posts/knopf--thus accomodating both chinscales & leather chinstrap as per regulations--and the ventilated spine, you think it would be safe to say my helmet is an M1895?
> Polizeiwachtmeister (Police Sergeant) & superior ranks of the Kaiserliche Schutzmannschaft wore the Reichsadler
whereas a Kaiserliche Schutzmann (Policeman or Constable) would have the WII Imperial Cypher as per the photos in the other thread, correct?

As for the 'Mediatstädten', I had found the following in case it would help (albeit in German): http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerichowscher_Kreis" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holzkreis" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
These probably corroborate what you said...
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Re: Prussian Cavalry NCO Portepee

Post by Glennj » Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:38 pm

Ronny,

according to Löhken: Reichsadler of Neusilber (nickel silver)

It looks like an M1895 to me.
Polizeiwachtmeister & superior ranks of the Kaiserliche Schutzmannschaft wore the Reichsadler
: Correct.
whereas a Kaiserliche Schutzmann (Policeman or Constable) would have the WII Imperial Cypher as per the photos in the other thread
: Correct.

In reality, the Schutzmann equated to a Sergeant and the Wachtmeister to a Sergeant Major.

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Re: Prussian Cavalry NCO Portepee

Post by Chip Minx » Wed May 22, 2013 7:09 pm

Back to one of your original questions.....no, that knot would not look especially odd on your saber. Anyone could purchase such an "extra" Faustriemen such as this one. Though it might be more appropriate on a commemorative regimental sword (type with the unit panel or other designs on the blade), I don't see any reason it could not have been worn with an issue saber such as this one.

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