Garde du Korps

Post by **b.loree** » Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:16 pm

I have deleted these pictures as requested by the owner. B. Loree

poniatowski · Post by **poniatowski** » Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:01 pm

I like it! Are those keyed threaded disks holding the eagle to the base? The eagle on my GdK has the same 'face', which seems to be a bit less detailed than some officer styles, but not as bad as what people here have referred to as a 'parrot' face. I've always wondered about it and would like to hear more opinions.

Ron

Adler · Post by **Adler** » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:32 pm

It's indeed looking good but isn't the eagle an Enlisted Men's type on an officer's base plate or is it just the pictures? Or is it just me?

Adler

hixxy1 · Post by **hixxy1** » Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:57 am

Hi Adler
I am knew to collecting Pickelhaubes, and would be intrigued to know why you think its an ORs eagle. The detail is stunning on the feathers and the crown is gilded the eagle is almost black the pictures do not do it justice. I can send you some more pictures by pm as i am unable to post pictures. I do have some more from the previous owner sent to me from the USA, it did come from one of the forum members in 2006. Hope you can give me some more help.
Tony

joerookery · Post by **joerookery** » Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:14 am

ps1927 by Joe Robinson, on Flickr

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:11 pm

Hello,

could you please indicate more pictures from the beak and the eyes and the feet ?

The eagle does not look like an officer piece.

The Gardestern I am not like it.

Gruß Dragoner08

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:31 pm

Watch on this piece . It is a copy !!!

The piece is 35 years old !

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:34 pm

Other pics.

Gruß Dragoner08

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:37 pm

Look at the beak.

poniatowski · Post by **poniatowski** » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:14 pm

Dragoner, are you saying the photos you posted are of a copy, or the GdK being shown in the first photos?

Ron

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:26 pm

Hi Ron,

the pictures of the helmet with the eagles are not so good, but the bill appears to be very round. That's not a good sign.

My eagle is 100% a fake.

Original eagle have an acute sloping beak. This eagle on the pics is original.

hixxy1 · Post by **hixxy1** » Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:20 pm

Could the helmet not be a manufactures variation. I have been in touch with the person i purchased the helmet from and he purchased it from Sergio, and he assures me that Sergio is the best on this subject Can we have an opinion from him on it, it would be very much appreciated.
Thanks
Tony

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:19 am

Hello Tony,

of course, there could be a variation .

Originates the helmet of Sergio Semino from Frankfurt Deutschand ?

joerookery · Post by **joerookery** » Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:59 pm

I find this very interesting but I do not know or understand the difference. I could only find one close up picture of an officer eagle but I am not sure that it even shows the beak. Could you guys show me the differences more clearly or in a different way. I'm not trying to be difficult I just don't see it. Thank you.

kurt2 by Joe Robinson, on Flickr

hixxy1 · Post by **hixxy1** » Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:42 pm

Hi Dragoner
Yes the helmet was purchased by him from Sergio Semino from Frankfurt Germany. I paid a lot of money for this helmet mainly that it originally came from him. I would like to know more about the eagle head, i have also contacted the previous owner with my concerns about it. I did pay top end price for it.
Thanks
Tony

hixxy1 · Post by **hixxy1** » Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:06 pm

Hi Joerookery
The last picture you have posted looks more like my eagle with the larger gap between the beak ?
Great picture
Thanks
Tony

hixxy1 · Post by **hixxy1** » Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:45 pm

Hi Dragoner
there is an identical officers eagle for sale on Helmut Weitze web site, you can get a better look at the head on that one.
Thanks
Tony

Westfront · Post by **Westfront** » Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:45 pm

Do you have a picture of the backside from the gardestern.

Bungo · Post by **Bungo** » Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:20 am

So I'm completely confused! Is the consensus that the original post is a copy, or authentic???

Spiker · Post by **Spiker** » Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:55 am

Apart from different plates and goldfinches on the crown ,Weitze’s , Dragoners and the eagle on top of this topic are identical to the smallest detail ,and if Dragoner knows for a fact that this eagle is an old copy …….

joerookery · Post by **joerookery** » Sat Mar 12, 2016 7:18 am

I don't see the difference. I'm not trying to be difficult it's just that I do not see but we are looking at. I would love to compare but I don't know what to compare. Help me Mr. Wizard.

ps1662 by Joe Robinson, on Flickr

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:04 am

Ok Tony , look at the pictures .

This piece is a copy !

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:07 am

These pieces are original !

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:11 am

Original !

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:15 am

The piece of Weitze I would not comment, ok

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:33 am

Please excuse my english is very bad . I can not well explain.

Scratch one an original eagle with a steel needle , so there may never come to light yellow metal. It must never be yellow metal visible.....never never never !!! it´s an galvanic - copy.

An original officer eagle costs about 10.000 , - Euro !

Do not you think that Weitze does not know ? ! ?

Post by **b.loree** » Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:12 pm

Gunnar, I understand your posts ....no problem, so do not worry about your English. As to the discussion, I can not conrtibute because I have only handled one of these....Tony Schnurr's.

hixxy1 · Post by **hixxy1** » Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:39 pm

Thanks Dragoner
i know what you are saying and on mine the helmet is good but the eagle is a copy. I am devastated the helmet cost me fortune, i just looked at a guarde du corps helmet i thought about purchasing from Sergio an earlier model so i did not go for it and it has the same eagle i only hope the man i purchased it from in the USA refunds my money . how much do you think the helmet is worth without the eagle and would i be able to purchase an officers eagle ?, i do need help on this.
Thanks
Tony

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:08 pm

Tony please send me pictures of the eagle .

[email protected]

Your eagle is a NCO (Mannschaftsstück) on the officer-basis. That´s ok.....has given it !

But I can not say to 100% that of the eagle original or a copy . I need more pictures.
But if the bill is round , which is a bad sign.

Send me pic´s.

Sergio Semino is a german dealer. He has good and bad pieces.

Can you send pictures from the back of the emblem ?

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:12 pm

Here is a picture of the back of an original

Gruß Gunnar/Dragoner08

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:25 pm

Here are more pictures of an unusual helmet . But it is 100% authentic !

The helmet body is magnetic ! No tombak ! It´s iron. It is a very late piece.

Look at the eagle. NCO eagle (Mannschaftsadler) with gold crown. But the Helmet body is an officer. It´s ok !

Gruß Dragoner08

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:27 pm

More pic´s

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:29 pm

hixxy1 · Post by **hixxy1** » Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:44 pm

Hi dragoner
I am unable to post pictures but i will have a good look tomorrow. looking at the helmet i do think it is original. it is at my friends at the moment but can have a good look then. The man who sold me the helmet is an honest man and i feel i should at least state that he had no idea the eagle was wrong. what i need to know is how much is the helmet worth without the eagle, hope you can help me on that.
many thanks
Tony

randy trawnik · Post by **randy trawnik** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:04 pm

I have been carefully reading the trail of responses related to the Guard du Corps officer helmet with eagle top herein posted. As a Pickelhaube Collector since 1962, I still consider myself a novice. Paul Pietsch, a great collector, researcher, scholar and author of the Lexicon Books on the Imperial German Army wrote in 1964, " even after spending a lifetime studying Imperial German military items I still did not know everything. No one does." He also wrote and that he still considered himself a "Putterer" in this field. Before I composed this reply I spoke with a number of other old guys like myself. We were all like minded in issuing the following statement.

My personal experience and research tell me that no one can make a perfect analysis of a piece of headgear by photos alone.

I have had the opportunity to hold and examine over 50 Guard du Corps helmets that were both from Officers and OR. I have owned a number of them too. In my collecting career I have had the opportunity to go to the back rooms of the WGM in Rastatt and the private Cavalry Collection in Vornholz. The variety of helmets, types, models, constructions and design are truly amazing. Please note that there were many makers and models of Garde du Corps Adler "Aufsatz" or eagle tops during its time from the early 1840's to 1918. Truth be known, the Juncker Company in Berlin were still selling Imperial GDC helmets into the 1930's.

Time and space does not allow me to describe everything that should be considered when examining a helmet. Before anything else is explored, the eagle should be weighed. It should be light weight construction as it was worn above the helmet body. The average weight of the Eagle without base nut should be between 450 and 500 grams. To our knowledge eagles were constructed from a number of metals that include:
Real Silver
German Silver
Silvered Brass (versilbert)
English Pewter (versilbert)
I personally have not seen an original Copper metal eagle (my opinion). This would probably be too soft and to heavy to wear.

I have seen "enlisted" quality eagle tops used on officer helmets. Many officers rose through the One Year Volunteer ranks. They upgraded the helmets as their rank and money permitted. I have in my collection such a helmet along with photographs of the soldier as a One Year Enlisted Man and later photos in full officer regalia. The helmet was the same. It went through upgrades with added stepped visor, Cloverleaf Rosettes, Officer cockades and officer eagle base.

At the most recent SOS in Louisville I was shown a Hessen 115 LGIR officer helmet that appeared to be a "parts" helmet. The helmet had extra holes behind the front plate, an EM style front plate, the impression of a round base that preceded the Hessen cross base, and many other inconsistencies. I opined that it was not a genuine piece. BOY WAS I WRONG. The dealer then produced a large box of documents and photographs of the owner of the helmet. The soldier was in a Prussian Aviation unit in 1912 then transferred to the 115th in 1914. He used the same helmet and altered it to meet the requirements of his new unit. One could plainly see in a 1915 photo of the soldier that he is wearing the obviously ALTERED helmet. The helmet was historical and 100% original.

Reproductions and altered helmets are the curse of every hobby. It is so with our hobby too. We should all be very careful in our proclamations. Remember, as Paul Pietsch said, none of us know it all.

All the statements presented in this FORUM are opinions only.

joerookery · Post by **joerookery** » Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:30 am

What he said!

: Below is the article link

http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/UpgadeKurr.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:15 am

It is true , they are all just opinions . But the opinions are based on years of experience .
to identify a eagle just about the weight , unfortunately, does not work . My Copy weighs 574 grams .

It is absolutely true that there were different eagle models. But never brass or copper. Zinc, silver and nickel silver are known . The Eagle consisted of 16 parts .

An eagle of 1843 is not comparable with an eagle of 1910th.

There were many differences.

Gruß Dragoner08

randy trawnik · Post by **randy trawnik** » Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:59 pm

I am sorry. You must of misread my post. The weight of an eagle is only an initial part of the examination. An original eagle must be lightweight at under 500 grams. An eagle weighing 524 grams is too heavy and thus a COPY as you indicated.

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:11 pm

Excuse my english is very bad.

Bungo · Post by **Bungo** » Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:00 am

Thank you Randy. Very helpful, and likely to save me from a costly mistake at some point in the future!

P.S. I own and love your book.

richesz28 · Post by **richesz28** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 7:56 am

I'd like some opinions on this one. I have a chance to purchase it but want to make certain it's original.

Another view.

I have more photos if needed.

Richard

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:16 am

Please send more pic´s.

Is the eagle from Ebay ?

richesz28 · Post by **richesz28** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:11 pm

Yes, it's an Ebay item. Thanks for your help.

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:26 pm

Richard, I think, the eagle is ok.

Gruß Dragoner08

Adler · Post by **Adler** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:24 pm

Seems I forgot about this interesting thread

...

Anyway, as Randy said, many things were not according the rules, but as we are collectors, we try to find the pieces that are according the regulations unless... there is provenance of the "wrong" object being used during the period.

So, in this case the first pictures gave me the impression that the eagle is an enlisted man's model on an officer's base. Here you have some pictures of my officer's and enlisted model for comparison. The off. is in 100% mint condition with all its frosted silver, the enlisted eagle has some patina but the crown is still nice silver colour (shows a bit yellowish in the pictures but it is silver). I see Dragoner8 already used one of my pictures

...

Imo one can see the differences between both models. Of course there are other variations depending on the maker, but the difference in quality is always visible imo...

Hope this helps in some way...

Adler

richesz28 · Post by **richesz28** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:47 pm

Thanks Dragoner08.

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:10 pm

Adler...oh my God, what beautiful pieces. You are responsible if I night can not sleep today .

Can you tell me what your officer Adler weighs ?

He is perfect....wow !!!!!

Gruß Dragoner08

Dragoner08 · Post by **Dragoner08** » Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:14 pm

I saw some time ago a helmet with such Adler in this perfect conservation here in Germany .

The helmet was offered by a dealer near Hamburg . No Weitze !

Is that the helmet from Germany ?

Gruß Gunnar

Spiker · Post by **Spiker** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:07 am

AWESOME ADLER,ADLER !!!!

Westfront · Post by **Westfront** » Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:11 am

Wow wow wow that is the most beautiful GdC Adler i've ever seen