Garde du Korps

This section is devoted to the steel helmets worn by the Kürassier and Jäger zu Pferde regiments prior to and during WW1

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Garde du Korps

Post by b.loree » Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:16 pm

I have deleted these pictures as requested by the owner. B. Loree
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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by poniatowski » Tue Mar 08, 2016 5:01 pm

I like it! Are those keyed threaded disks holding the eagle to the base? The eagle on my GdK has the same 'face', which seems to be a bit less detailed than some officer styles, but not as bad as what people here have referred to as a 'parrot' face. I've always wondered about it and would like to hear more opinions.

:D Ron
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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Adler » Tue Mar 08, 2016 7:32 pm

It's indeed looking good but isn't the eagle an Enlisted Men's type on an officer's base plate or is it just the pictures? Or is it just me?

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by hixxy1 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:57 am

Hi Adler
I am knew to collecting Pickelhaubes, and would be intrigued to know why you think its an ORs eagle. The detail is stunning on the feathers and the crown is gilded the eagle is almost black the pictures do not do it justice. I can send you some more pictures by pm as i am unable to post pictures. I do have some more from the previous owner sent to me from the USA, it did come from one of the forum members in 2006. Hope you can give me some more help.
Tony

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by joerookery » Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:14 am

Imageps1927 by Joe Robinson, on Flickr
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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:11 pm

Hello,

could you please indicate more pictures from the beak and the eyes and the feet ?

The eagle does not look like an officer piece.

The Gardestern I am not like it.

Gruß Dragoner08

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:31 pm

Watch on this piece . It is a copy !!!

The piece is 35 years old !
Attachments
Gardereiter 082.JPG
Gardereiter 077.JPG
Gardereiter 080.JPG
Gardereiter 066.JPG
Gardereiter 068.JPG

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:34 pm

Other pics.

Gruß Dragoner08
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Gardereiter 084.JPG
Gardereiter 072.JPG
Gardereiter 090.JPG
Gardereiter 086.JPG
Gardereiter 076.JPG

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:37 pm

Look at the beak.
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Gardereiter 075.JPG
Gardereiter 089.JPG
Gardereiter 097.JPG
Gardereiter 096.JPG
Gardereiter 098.JPG

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by poniatowski » Wed Mar 09, 2016 1:14 pm

Dragoner, are you saying the photos you posted are of a copy, or the GdK being shown in the first photos?

:D Ron
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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Wed Mar 09, 2016 2:26 pm

Hi Ron,

the pictures of the helmet with the eagles are not so good, but the bill appears to be very round. That's not a good sign.

My eagle is 100% a fake.

Original eagle have an acute sloping beak. This eagle on the pics is original.
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Helme und Kürassbeschädigung 022.JPG
Helme und Kürassbeschädigung 020.JPG

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by hixxy1 » Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:20 pm

Could the helmet not be a manufactures variation. I have been in touch with the person i purchased the helmet from and he purchased it from Sergio, and he assures me that Sergio is the best on this subject Can we have an opinion from him on it, it would be very much appreciated.
Thanks
Tony

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Fri Mar 11, 2016 9:19 am

Hello Tony,

of course, there could be a variation .

Originates the helmet of Sergio Semino from Frankfurt Deutschand ?

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by joerookery » Fri Mar 11, 2016 1:59 pm

I find this very interesting but I do not know or understand the difference. I could only find one close up picture of an officer eagle but I am not sure that it even shows the beak. Could you guys show me the differences more clearly or in a different way. I'm not trying to be difficult I just don't see it. Thank you.

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by hixxy1 » Fri Mar 11, 2016 2:42 pm

Hi Dragoner
Yes the helmet was purchased by him from Sergio Semino from Frankfurt Germany. I paid a lot of money for this helmet mainly that it originally came from him. I would like to know more about the eagle head, i have also contacted the previous owner with my concerns about it. I did pay top end price for it.
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Tony

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by hixxy1 » Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:06 pm

Hi Joerookery
The last picture you have posted looks more like my eagle with the larger gap between the beak ?
Great picture
Thanks
Tony

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by hixxy1 » Fri Mar 11, 2016 3:45 pm

Hi Dragoner
there is an identical officers eagle for sale on Helmut Weitze web site, you can get a better look at the head on that one.
Thanks
Tony

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Westfront » Fri Mar 11, 2016 5:45 pm

Do you have a picture of the backside from the gardestern.

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Bungo » Sat Mar 12, 2016 4:20 am

So I'm completely confused! Is the consensus that the original post is a copy, or authentic???

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Spiker » Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:55 am

Apart from different plates and goldfinches on the crown ,Weitze’s , Dragoners and the eagle on top of this topic are identical to the smallest detail ,and if Dragoner knows for a fact that this eagle is an old copy …….
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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by joerookery » Sat Mar 12, 2016 7:18 am

I don't see the difference. I'm not trying to be difficult it's just that I do not see but we are looking at. I would love to compare but I don't know what to compare. Help me Mr. Wizard.

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:04 am

Ok Tony , look at the pictures .

This piece is a copy !
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Gardereiter 067.JPG

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:07 am

These pieces are original !
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GdC 008.JPG
GdC 1.jpg
DSCN4496.JPG
DSCN4575.JPG
Helme und Kürassbeschädigung 020.JPG

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:11 am

Original !
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gdc004.jpg
gdc004.jpg
m9497pruisgardekurassie.jpg
tumblr_mr788oVi3C1s2cjiro1_r1_1280.jpg

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:15 am

The piece of Weitze I would not comment, ok :-?

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:33 am

Please excuse my english is very bad . I can not well explain.

Scratch one an original eagle with a steel needle , so there may never come to light yellow metal. It must never be yellow metal visible.....never never never !!! it´s an galvanic - copy.

An original officer eagle costs about 10.000 , - Euro !

Do not you think that Weitze does not know ? ! ?

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by b.loree » Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:12 pm

Gunnar, I understand your posts ....no problem, so do not worry about your English. As to the discussion, I can not conrtibute because I have only handled one of these....Tony Schnurr's.
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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by hixxy1 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 2:39 pm

Thanks Dragoner
i know what you are saying and on mine the helmet is good but the eagle is a copy. I am devastated the helmet cost me fortune, i just looked at a guarde du corps helmet i thought about purchasing from Sergio an earlier model so i did not go for it and it has the same eagle i only hope the man i purchased it from in the USA refunds my money . how much do you think the helmet is worth without the eagle and would i be able to purchase an officers eagle ?, i do need help on this.
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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:08 pm

Tony please send me pictures of the eagle .

[email protected]

Your eagle is a NCO (Mannschaftsstück) on the officer-basis. That´s ok.....has given it !

But I can not say to 100% that of the eagle original or a copy . I need more pictures.
But if the bill is round , which is a bad sign.

Send me pic´s.

Sergio Semino is a german dealer. He has good and bad pieces.

Can you send pictures from the back of the emblem ?

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:12 pm

Here is a picture of the back of an original

Gruß Gunnar/Dragoner08
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Helm 002.JPG

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:25 pm

Here are more pictures of an unusual helmet . But it is 100% authentic !

The helmet body is magnetic ! No tombak ! It´s iron. It is a very late piece.

Look at the eagle. NCO eagle (Mannschaftsadler) with gold crown. But the Helmet body is an officer. It´s ok !

Gruß Dragoner08
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GdC 001.JPG
GdC 003.JPG
GdC 003.JPG
GdC 005.JPG
GdC 006.JPG

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:27 pm

More pic´s
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GdC 013.JPG
GdC 012.JPG
GdC 011.JPG
GdC 010.JPG
GdC 002.JPG

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 3:29 pm

.
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GdC 016.JPG
GdC 009.JPG
GdC 018.JPG
GdC 017.JPG
GdC 016.JPG

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by hixxy1 » Sat Mar 12, 2016 5:44 pm

Hi dragoner
I am unable to post pictures but i will have a good look tomorrow. looking at the helmet i do think it is original. it is at my friends at the moment but can have a good look then. The man who sold me the helmet is an honest man and i feel i should at least state that he had no idea the eagle was wrong. what i need to know is how much is the helmet worth without the eagle, hope you can help me on that.
many thanks
Tony

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by randy trawnik » Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:04 pm

I have been carefully reading the trail of responses related to the Guard du Corps officer helmet with eagle top herein posted. As a Pickelhaube Collector since 1962, I still consider myself a novice. Paul Pietsch, a great collector, researcher, scholar and author of the Lexicon Books on the Imperial German Army wrote in 1964, " even after spending a lifetime studying Imperial German military items I still did not know everything. No one does." He also wrote and that he still considered himself a "Putterer" in this field. Before I composed this reply I spoke with a number of other old guys like myself. We were all like minded in issuing the following statement.

My personal experience and research tell me that no one can make a perfect analysis of a piece of headgear by photos alone.

I have had the opportunity to hold and examine over 50 Guard du Corps helmets that were both from Officers and OR. I have owned a number of them too. In my collecting career I have had the opportunity to go to the back rooms of the WGM in Rastatt and the private Cavalry Collection in Vornholz. The variety of helmets, types, models, constructions and design are truly amazing. Please note that there were many makers and models of Garde du Corps Adler "Aufsatz" or eagle tops during its time from the early 1840's to 1918. Truth be known, the Juncker Company in Berlin were still selling Imperial GDC helmets into the 1930's.

Time and space does not allow me to describe everything that should be considered when examining a helmet. Before anything else is explored, the eagle should be weighed. It should be light weight construction as it was worn above the helmet body. The average weight of the Eagle without base nut should be between 450 and 500 grams. To our knowledge eagles were constructed from a number of metals that include:
Real Silver
German Silver
Silvered Brass (versilbert)
English Pewter (versilbert)
I personally have not seen an original Copper metal eagle (my opinion). This would probably be too soft and to heavy to wear.

I have seen "enlisted" quality eagle tops used on officer helmets. Many officers rose through the One Year Volunteer ranks. They upgraded the helmets as their rank and money permitted. I have in my collection such a helmet along with photographs of the soldier as a One Year Enlisted Man and later photos in full officer regalia. The helmet was the same. It went through upgrades with added stepped visor, Cloverleaf Rosettes, Officer cockades and officer eagle base.

At the most recent SOS in Louisville I was shown a Hessen 115 LGIR officer helmet that appeared to be a "parts" helmet. The helmet had extra holes behind the front plate, an EM style front plate, the impression of a round base that preceded the Hessen cross base, and many other inconsistencies. I opined that it was not a genuine piece. BOY WAS I WRONG. The dealer then produced a large box of documents and photographs of the owner of the helmet. The soldier was in a Prussian Aviation unit in 1912 then transferred to the 115th in 1914. He used the same helmet and altered it to meet the requirements of his new unit. One could plainly see in a 1915 photo of the soldier that he is wearing the obviously ALTERED helmet. The helmet was historical and 100% original.

Reproductions and altered helmets are the curse of every hobby. It is so with our hobby too. We should all be very careful in our proclamations. Remember, as Paul Pietsch said, none of us know it all.

All the statements presented in this FORUM are opinions only.

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by joerookery » Tue Mar 15, 2016 9:30 am

What he said! :bravo: : Below is the article link
Image


http://www.pickelhauben.net/articles/UpgadeKurr.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Image
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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:15 am

It is true , they are all just opinions . But the opinions are based on years of experience .
to identify a eagle just about the weight , unfortunately, does not work . My Copy weighs 574 grams .

It is absolutely true that there were different eagle models. But never brass or copper. Zinc, silver and nickel silver are known . The Eagle consisted of 16 parts .

An eagle of 1843 is not comparable with an eagle of 1910th.

There were many differences.

Gruß Dragoner08

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by randy trawnik » Tue Mar 15, 2016 3:59 pm

I am sorry. You must of misread my post. The weight of an eagle is only an initial part of the examination. An original eagle must be lightweight at under 500 grams. An eagle weighing 524 grams is too heavy and thus a COPY as you indicated.

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:11 pm

Excuse my english is very bad.

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Bungo » Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:00 am

Thank you Randy. Very helpful, and likely to save me from a costly mistake at some point in the future!

P.S. I own and love your book.

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by richesz28 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 7:56 am

I'd like some opinions on this one. I have a chance to purchase it but want to make certain it's original.
Image

Another view.
Image

I have more photos if needed.

Richard

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:16 am

Please send more pic´s.

Is the eagle from Ebay ?

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by richesz28 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 12:11 pm

Yes, it's an Ebay item. Thanks for your help.

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 1:26 pm

Richard, I think, the eagle is ok.

Gruß Dragoner08

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Adler » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:24 pm

Seems I forgot about this interesting thread #-o ...

Anyway, as Randy said, many things were not according the rules, but as we are collectors, we try to find the pieces that are according the regulations unless... there is provenance of the "wrong" object being used during the period.

So, in this case the first pictures gave me the impression that the eagle is an enlisted man's model on an officer's base. Here you have some pictures of my officer's and enlisted model for comparison. The off. is in 100% mint condition with all its frosted silver, the enlisted eagle has some patina but the crown is still nice silver colour (shows a bit yellowish in the pictures but it is silver). I see Dragoner8 already used one of my pictures :-k ...

Imo one can see the differences between both models. Of course there are other variations depending on the maker, but the difference in quality is always visible imo...

Hope this helps in some way...

Adler

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by richesz28 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:47 pm

Thanks Dragoner08.

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:10 pm

Adler...oh my God, what beautiful pieces. You are responsible if I night can not sleep today . :lol:

Can you tell me what your officer Adler weighs ?

He is perfect....wow !!!!!

Gruß Dragoner08

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Dragoner08 » Thu Mar 17, 2016 3:14 pm

I saw some time ago a helmet with such Adler in this perfect conservation here in Germany .

The helmet was offered by a dealer near Hamburg . No Weitze !

Is that the helmet from Germany ?

Gruß Gunnar

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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Spiker » Fri Mar 18, 2016 3:07 am

:-? AWESOME ADLER,ADLER !!!! =D> =D> =D>
Cheers Image
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Re: Garde du Korps

Post by Westfront » Fri Mar 18, 2016 7:11 am

Wow wow wow that is the most beautiful GdC Adler i've ever seen :bravo:

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